The Lowest dyno results (blue line) are when my car was stock last year on this same dyno. All three dynos had some slight correction and therefore are very comparable. The only modification at that time was I had removed the carbon air filter . There was an anomoly higher stock pull but all of the others were in this range so that is what we used.
Over the past year I had: installed lighter wheels, added the OBX lightweight pulley, got an SFR canned tune, added the RC2 airbox, got a PNP intake manifold from GrimmSpeed, throttle body coolant bypass, and added the CNT exhaust system. That is the extent of my modifications and the car now has 17K miles on it. The car felt much stronger than stock in this configuration and this is how I happily drove it for the last year although I often wanted a bit more. When I had added the SFR canned tune I had seen a notable mpg jump from about an average of about 21 to about an average of 24 (around town) mpg. On the way to Houston for the custom tune (no wind, no AC) w/ cruise set mostly at 75mph (a few small towns and redlights) I averaged 25.9mpg. This is the middle lines on my dyno chart in the color red.
Jay at SFR custom tuned my car and I think we were both very happy w/ the results. The midrange gains in particular were awesome. My highest dyno result was actually a couple of hp higher than this graph shows but somehow I ended up w/ this graph on paper. I'm not certain if that was because this indeed was the file I ended up with or just a paperwork error. Jay had warned me not to expect much if any gain from going to a custom tune but in the end (for instance) I gained 19 tq in some spots on the graph. I also drove back maintaining the same average speed and I averaged 28.8 mpg on the way home, at 75mph. I've read things like the programming at part throttle settings etc isn't changed but this is what I experienced, the best trip mpg I've ever gotten driving at normal (not hypermiling) speeds. This is shown in green and is the highest result.
As always Jay was awesome to be around and I wish the guy lived a lot closer. Jay can be a little gruff online but that is only because he is such a bad-ass in person. And the crew of gencoupe members that showed up were also really great and I learned a lot. In fact my stereo now sounds a lot better and I have a better idea of what offsets I want.
One other note I'll add and this is just merely my opinion. Some might know that my GrimmSpeed balance porting didn't result in exactly spectacular results. Although at part throttle driving the car felt notably faster by the butt dyno, the actul dyno results showed a tiny loss in power (1-2hp). My dyno operator at the time that dynoed this change pointed out that this sort of mod sort of needs free flowing intake and exhaust (which I didn't have at that time) and possibly custom tuning to take advantage of the increased flow and possibly changes in the ideal AF ratio. I certainly give the majority of the credit for my power gains to SFR and his awesome tuning skills but I also acknowledge that Jay told me not to expect more than very minor gains. Yet I gained a similiar amount of power of upgrading to a custom tune as I gained w/ ALL of my other mods combined which even included a tune! I think the GrimmSpeed stuff is a winner but ideally needs to be combined w/ a custom tune. Jay also acknowledged that my car was a strong runner and in particular the torque curve was unusually strong.
*Sorry guys but I'm struggling to make this dyno chart show in this thread. Any tips? Thx
Probably going to get F 18x9.5 +18 w/ a 265/35 R18 & R 19x10.5 +30 w/ a 295/30 R19. BC wheels is crunching their numbers to make certain that it all works.
Some might know that my GrimmSpeed balance porting didn't result in exactly spectacular results. Although at part throttle driving the car felt notably faster by the butt dyno, the actul dyno results showed a tiny loss in power (1-2hp).
Another product that cashes in on the uneducated car enthusiast.
Post your dyno sheet on photo bucket and link it here... I'd like to see the curve more in depth. Is there a before/after tune pull?
Also Juice, aren't you the guy that was on here about a year ago, that acted like a douche know-it-all and posted pics of your cars that turned out to just be photos you had grabbed online of other peoples cars? And also you didnt even own a GC? My apologies if I confused you for someone else.
Very impressive but on stock dyno you had a dip in the power curve at 4800rpm, it was gone with the canned tune... then came back with the custom tune... isnt that something that should of been eliminated, especially with a cutom tuneÉ
We were all aware of this and Jay spent time trying to dial the dip out. You know, after strapping the car on, he gets about 90 minutes to tune the car. Could he have gotten the dip out given more time, probably. But I got what I got. I mean, it was $450!
The other catch is this, I'm pretty certain that the top file shown here was my final run but not the final file that was burned on to my ECU. I could have swore that Jay went back to an early version that didn't get rid of the dip but never dropped below the older canned numbers and also was 2 hp more peak than this chart shows.
Anyways, if I lost 2hp over that small 200 rpm band while still being a 25 more hp than stock in that position and more everywhere else, well I'm still very happy.
So then the thermal coating is just trapping the heat inside the manifold as you are suggesting lower temps outside the manifold using a heat gun...
Also the runners that were "balanced" would still NEVER be close to a restriction, even if they flowed less CFM than the other runners... Your whole idea of the situation is skewed because you don't want to believe you bought a pointless mod.
Here is the thing, I really do appreciate thoughtful discussion and differing opinions. But I don't need you coming on here trying to tell me what I want to believe because I spent money (or didn't in this particular case). Because you don't know me at all or my thought process. I don't 'wing' it. In fact I dynoed before and after many of my mods (including the GrimmSpeed) on the same dyno, same dyno operator, similiar weather conditions, and in the case of the GrimmSpeed, the actual same tank of fuel.
Your entire first sentence above just isn't even logical. The intake is bringing in cooling air from the outside. This intake plenum how ever is bathed in a high heat environment under the hood. The plenum is picking up very little heat from the heads because there is a plenum spacer between the heads and the cold intake. The ONLY thing applying heat to the plenums is the hot environment surrounding it under the hood, and we are blocking this.
Here is the deal: Jay told me to expect little to absolutely no gains what-so-ever with a custom tune coming from my canned tune. I decided to spend the money because I had a serious hunch that the ideal AF ratio had been altered by the GrimmSpeed work. Jay appeared to be flat astonished by the gains in certain portions of the powerband after custom tuning. I can only assume it was highly unusual. I think if you overlay my dyno chart against other 3.8s with similiar mods you will see mine is a bit torquier than most. Therefore I'm left w/ the conclusion that the GrimmSpeed mods, when combined w/ custom tuning, offer some advantage. Rather or not it's worth the money to others, well I can't decide that.
He`s just a troll man, 90% of his posts are negative. How long have you had your pulley on... any issuesÉ (****ing need to reset my pc my keyboard is messed)
The results look good. I bet it really comes alive in the upper RPMs and that's probably where you can feel the biggest difference. Thanks for sharing the dyno charts.
Op do yourself a favor... go drive around in your car, do it in an area where you don't have to idle... keep it moving. Jump outta the car, pop the hood and then put your hand on the intake. It should feel almost cool to the touch, a little luke warm maybe... Now sit there for 5-10 minutes with the hood popped so that there is no hot air being trapped in the engine bay.
Touch the manifold again, careful you might burn yourself this time.
When you figure out what all this means you might understand why the mod was pointless and exploits the misinformed.
You're calling me a troll without even considering that my view could be correct. Why don't you go and do the same thing. When you burn your hand too you can sit and reflect on the decisions you made that led you to the position you are currently in.
For the love of God, would you give the negativity a rest? Since you seem to care so much about the community's engine performance (seriously, I'm not being sarcastic; the number of replies you've made telling people to do things differently clearly means you want people on here to spend less money and get more gains), why don't you actually do something positive for us?
Channel all that negativity and "you're wrong, I'm right, therefore you're wasting your money" into something like a positive write up. Spend a few minutes and make a clear, concise (or not concise, I personally don't mind reading) write up on how to get the most out of your engine for the least $$.
Yes, I'm serious. You claim to have all this knowledge on engine "tuning" and other things, but I have yet to see much of it actually come from you (other than a simple "you're wrong/stupid/wasting your money"). Make a good write up and maybe it'll get stickied. Then maybe everyone here will read it and learn from it. Maybe it'll push the "tuners" in the community to lower their prices (for example, you could explain why you think the GenCoupe "tunes" are equivalent to other cars' "chips", and then post general price ranges for these "chips").
Something like this. Something positive instead of always being so negative.
You have a good point but the purpose of this board is to generate ad revenue for the owners of the board. This is done by paying vendors who in turn need to make money off the community to stay in business.
If I posted a write up on how to get the most for your money and avoid buying useless garbage it will immediately be taken down as it is not in the best interest of the board owners for such a write up to exist.
c) fed up from a decade of showing people the right way to do things, only to have criminals talk those people out of it and waste their money anyway... I used to try so hard to help people. Now it's obvious only a select few are willing to listen.
If you have an open mind you'll see what I'm saying. It helps if you're willing to educate yourself. I don't like to show people exactly what the deal is, I like to point them in the direction they need to go and have them figure it out for themselves... it's the only way they ever learn.
I want to hear both sides and make my own decisions based on facts and common sense. We are talking about large sum of money for tune in Suns_PSD case. $400 for canned tune + $450 custom tune on same car. Its $850 , more like $900+ when you count the shipping costs and gas. Suns_PSD will need another tune when he adds FI or cams in future. It starts adding up nicely just to keep the engine running at tip top performance. I like to read what Juice has to offer in real add ons or way to get better performance for dollar by tuning. Far as I know we are pretty much stuck with the vendors on genesiscoupe.com for tuning options.I am open to any ideas to save money while enjoying this hobby of making our cars go faster.:bowdown:
Juice, I appreciate your passion on the topic. And honestly, neither you or I knows for certain if the GrimmSpeed works; we are both making educated guesses. And I see just about 1 year ago you too were excited about the GrimmSpeed results and asking questions.
Ultimately, I have more info to work with than you. I also have a local engine builder that uses lots of coatings and he has 15 years of dyno results and faster 1/4 mile times to back up strtegically placed thermal coatings. He insulates his intakes.
I am not a wily nilly buy every mod out there kind of guy. I see lots of mods that I don't agree with. But based on Jay telling me to expect minimal gains w/ a custom tune (over his canned) yet me getting positively huge gains for a NA motor; I have concluded that there really is something to this modification.
I might also add that I have less than $1500 in my GC's engine and I've gained (edited) 41 rwhp at peak rpm and 28lbs of torque at the same w/ tremendous gains everywhere else as well. I might be doing something correctly after all.
I was trying to bait him into a ridiculous answer... he never fell for it because he likely knew I woulda hung him on his words.
The port job would be an effective mod for someone running boost... other than that it's just something you can brag about... Also I never ragged on you for your other mods, I just have an issue with people blowing that kinda $ for something so blatantly worthless. What'd you pick up for power with that mod? I'd be willing to bet less than 5whp with a slight chance that you lost power.
PS. I've really wanted a turbo kit for this car, but currently I really enjoy the overall performance of the car. It really is enough for the cop covered roads I usually travel. This is probably it for me for engine mods.
I'm getting new wheels and I think that will be it for me. I'll consider this car complete then and will instead focus my money and time on joining WildBill at some track days.
Juice, your I'm better than everyone else's attitude sucks, if youre a non contributing member, what exactly are you doing here then? To point out what you think others are doing wrong? Please share with us your ultra efficient and low cost mods list.
The point of a forum is to share your knowledge, be it less or more than others. The whole 2nd grade "I know but I'm not telling" crap is bs.
You're right and that's what I'm attempting to do here... but the point of this forum is to generate ad revenue for the owners of the board. This is done by paying vendors who then have to condition the community to buy their garbage so they can continue to pay their ad costs and stay in business.
If more and more people took the time to actually educate themselves, the vendors would be forced to come out with better products and sell them for less.
Remember... the shops don't set the market, the community does, and that's why you guys are paying $600 for reflashes and $500 for a useless ported intake...
I have to disagree about it being the point of the forum. The point is to be an informational database for the genesis community, HOW they are able to provide that database and stay operational is by generating ad revenue etc etc as you mentioned.
The price were paying for parts isn't all that uncommon for a car that has only been on the market for just 3 years, this happens with with most new cars as manufacturers are recouping RandD costs and the market is smaller so they are able to get away with it. The prices of parts will go down as the car has been around longer.
Ultimately it is up to the consumer as to how he or she wants to spend their money, and if it is worth it to them.
I for one find the manifold porting to be a great mod, then again I am boosted. Research about how and how well the stock manifold on the 3.8 flows would have been something I'd have done before buying the manifold for it. But it doesn't mean that the OP made the wrong decision. More testing needs to be done before either of you can be considered right
I have to disagree about it being the point of the forum. The point is to be an informational database for the genesis community, HOW they are able to provide that database and stay operational is by generating ad revenue etc etc as you mentioned.
This is a totally naive comment... to think that this is why this forum exists shows you are seriously out of touch and I suggest you look into what I'm saying a little more. Just a quick example... it costs about $500 a year to run this board, possibly even less. There are roughly 35 supporting vendors on this board, all of which pay about half the yearly cost to run this board per month... that's ABOUT 250x35 a month. Not to mention the ads that pop up in the middle of the screen which contributes even more.
I for one find the manifold porting to be a great mod, then again I am boosted. Research about how and how well the stock manifold on the 3.8 flows would have been something I'd have done before buying the manifold for it. But it doesn't mean that the OP made the wrong decision. More testing needs to be done before either of you can be considered right
According to grimmspeed they've ported each runner to flow about 335cfm. The stock casting flows anywhere from 290-330cfm. An n/a 3.8 is going to flow MAX of 600-700 CFM in TOTAL! That's about 100-125cfm per runner. Think about it! You're taking a part that isn't even close to being a restriction, and opening it up more. Which is why I said I'd bet less than a 5whp gain and a chance that it loses power.
LOL. I'm naive and out of touch, now I've heard it all....
Well lets break it down.
without contributing members...no information....without information....nobody comes here....If nobody comes here....no reason to pay to be a vendor....with no revenue....forum fails. Or should we re order that to suit your more advanced mind?
This board grosses 100-200k a year for it's owners. You're saying the point of the board is to share information??? No! It's to condition uneducated car enthusiasts into spending their time and money on this board to support the cash-flow... Products like the ported intakes are proof of this! People have heard that porting intakes makes power on other applications... however they never took the time to see if this was one of those applications. It's not, and people are still buying these things up which continues the circle.
Suns, didn't you say before that you did a before and after dyno of just the manifold? Results from that should squash the back and forth quibbling about P&P being a worth while investment...
I'm confident in a less than 5whp gain and potentially a loss of power, especially in the lower RPMs... You can't just hog out the intakes and expect to pick up power... there's a reason they are the size they are from the factory. Now if you were going boosted then there's a different set of variables and a ported intake might be worthwhile at that point... maybe.
just looking at two custom tunes done by SFR over the last weekend , the car that had the headers had more whp than Suns-PSD set up. Its very hard to nail down which bolt on engine upgrades will be better for GC as of now.
It doesn't help that you have a bunch of shops just doing things because they think people will buy them and it makes sense for them financially. Shops should be coming out with stuff that is actually effective. Designing headers isn't as simple as bending some pipes and welding. There's a lot of engineering that needs to go into it.
I'd like to think that but I don't think it's true. Just look at my middle dyno resut improvement from stock that included all of those bolt on mods AND my aftermarket wheels.
Anyways, a dyno would only measure the weight reduction on the rear wheels.
I'm getting fully forged wheels next time however, just in case.
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