Wellmine

Jeez, i respect and highly value the opinion of many members who has posted in this thread. A lot of you post intelligent and detailed information on their setup or what they plan and this is what i like. But What OMEGA just posted is exactly how i feel about this car and what turbo brand the average user should use. I agree with the fact that everyone are entitled to their opinion, this is after all.. a fact, but there also been some misinformations posted.

Just an example, anyone who has been doing serious track (real track with curve, not Oval stuff) and has knowledge about it would never put the bigger possible turbo in his car. You do not want to downshift everytime you come out of a corner to get back in your spool. Your losing precious time that could be gained otherwise. You want a low mid range turbo, to slow down in the curve and kick back once your almost out as fast as you slowed down. Unless the track you go on has some huge stretch where you can really push the car. But then again, a different turbo for a different situation.

That being said, MY opinion on the subject is the same as OMEGA as stated above, a good turbo for a car that heavy in my opinion should not require you to rev to 7000+ RPM everytime to want to use it's full potential. After all, the street is not a racing track. I understand Whatsnot logic when he say he prefer having something he consider better and use it at 50% of it's efficiency most of the time and use it fully here and there. This is his own right. But considering all the speed limit we got, how hungry some cops can be and how dangerous and irresponsible it would be to rev your car to 7200RPM or so just so you can have fun with your car (lets be honest, in 4th gear with a GT30 if your up to 7000RPM your already way over the speed limit and is on the edge of being dangerous) this is probably not for the average users.

I think a smaller turbo is best suited for DD with this car. I admit that it's probably EASIER to control your car with a turbo that has some lag VS something like the 19T upgrade, but it also mean that to have fun and push your car you'll have to break speed limit which is maybe not what everyone want. I do not personally own a big turbo, but my childhood friend has a jetta 1.8t and he droped a big turbo in his car, so i kind of know what im talking about. I've experienced it on the road, on the track and at the drag. I let him drive my car with a simple BR reflash and he kept telling me how funny the car was to drive. He could push it and feel the torque without having to always risk to get a fine.

To sum it up, everyone are entitled to their opinion, but people need to see both side of the medal. Bigger turbo are not more DD friendly in every situation. Every turbo has it's good and bad side. But saying that a bigger turbo win everytime in every situation is simply wrong.

__________________
2010 Mirabeau Blue Genesis Coupe 2.0T (base)
CP-E Cat-Back: Resonator & Black Chrome Tips
CP-E Downpipe: High-Flow Cat
AEM CAI
BR PA 93 Reflash
14.109/99.34MPH

whatnot

^^ good post. I am sorry guys, I am a littel hard headed and get a little stubburn. I it is too bad people can't try it out before buying, I do think it will be a little eye opening for some to try a big turbo like it was for me, and I will never go back. I will agree to disagree on some of that above though, but I think I am done for now, thanks for thos that keept it civil an didn't go too hard with personal attacks.

Wellmine

Hey bro, dont back up, this is a discussion thread. And as long as everyone keep it civil, it's a great threads to get different opinion for different situation. Someone could drop in, see himself in someone else situation and decide to go that route. Lets just try to keep it friendly

__________________
2010 Mirabeau Blue Genesis Coupe 2.0T (base)
CP-E Cat-Back: Resonator & Black Chrome Tips
CP-E Downpipe: High-Flow Cat
AEM CAI
BR PA 93 Reflash
14.109/99.34MPH

sheijo

Omega- i would argue it comes down to how you prefer to drive. using the BR dyno chart as a rough WAG (the PWR should be similar from what i read in the thread, but some guys are pushing 24+psi as compared to 20 on the BR canned tune), and using Richardb1285s car as the "base" gt30 car anything below 4k rpm is small turbo territory, anything above 4k is gt30 territory. I say 4k rpm because comparing the TXS dyno of the gt30 and the BR dyno of their Stage 3 that is the point both cars are putting out about the same hp/tq. for me i wanna have fun in the 4k+ range, if somebody wants to race unless they do the ricer flyby or no notice jump you then your gonna have a chance to down shift (of course from a dig is different). some people prefer the 2.4k-4k realm and thats fine by me (2.4 is about when the BR turbo reaches positive preasure per their dyno). even giving the BR turbo an advantage in the 1.5-4K rpm range and the GT30 the advantage in the 4k-7.2k range the GT30 has more "usable" rpms in its advantage line of the dyno, and i wouldn't call that a dyno queen vs a smaller turbo.
DISCLAIMER:
The above description was writen BEFORE the PRW product was finished with a PRW tune provided by BBB. The BR Stage 3 dyno was used as a baseline due to the fact PRW has stated their setup is infact a cheaper alternative and in their opinion better to the stage 3 setup. The tune will tell the story. links are as follow for mentioned dyno charts.
http://www.gencoupe.com/2-0t/31881-2...sheets-15.html
The Project Phoenix Chronicles: A Definitive Guide To Modifying Your 2.0T Gencoupe

This isn't to say the smaller turbo is slow, not by any means. with just an intake and exhaust and base PA flash i was nose and nose with S2ks, which i wouldn't call slow. with the 19t you will be doing much better than most cars on the road, and i don't think that any of the guys going with the larger turbos are trying to insuate that. it will be a fantastic upgrade from the stock and make good power. but to make the blanket statement that the smaller turbo is 100% better in all part is incorrect. Also saying the medium turbos are 100% better in all realms than the smaller is incorrect. better is subjective and i think this thread got stuck one nobody willing to compromise on what is better where.

I would not say that the first time modder should just hop onto the GT30, fully build motor etc, or even go with one of the stock motor gt30 upgrades. start small work your way up. isn't that what "stages" are for? if you have modded cars before you will already kinda know where you wanna go. the opinion of the speed shop/tuner will probably provide more of a factor in what people buy if they are new than this forum. it will be their job to what a customer wants with what they will actualy use/enjoy. I guarantee crawford performance would not let some guy that just bought his first come in and say i want a 600awhp car and just do it. yes its money but rep is important and you get a bad one doing stuff like that.

I think this thread got started because in the PRW thread they are selling to their base and people that share the same points of view. the small turbo crown, which PRW likes in their personal opinion. and in there its small turbo is the best thing since sliced bread. the idea here was to say compare and contrast them? not get to the point where people lose their minds and get entrenched because of a percieved slight that somebody typed on the internet. calling somebody wrong will just polarize the debate, look at the 3.8 vs 2.0t debate. some like NA some like turbo, nobody is "wrong" in what they want. I have see PRW reccomend bigger turbos based on what somebody said they wanna do. this would be a good thread for PRW to use the "10 years exp" to say "this is the difference" in an unbaised way, not to get in a pissing contest with other people on the forums about their personal preference.

PRW is taking the hit on marketing their product because money isn't everything. reputation matters alot. if you just buy and install stuff your a regular speed shop. if you custom fab parts, provide good tunes for that product you get a good rep. which is better selling 10 custom setups you don't make that much margin on or selling 5 products you make more margin on? the 10 custom setups because people will market how awesome the custom stuff is for you and they will be a return customer. look at the BR forged internals debate... they say 300 is is high as they think is safe on the stock motor before you do internals, and that is where they set their stage 3. imagine if they pushed the stage 3 to its max potential and people started blowing motors because of weak parts? it would only take a few to start getting a bad rep and people would stop buying their stuff. your gonna take a hit from some people, most people get it. my comment was trying to say stop trying to market your stuff to people that like larger turbos and give a good comparison between smaller and larger and what you gain/lose with both. seeing the title "Small turbo vs large turbo discussion" that is what i think would be posted here.

Rspecwhite

Well said! One of the most accurate and informative posts in this entire thread imho.

__________________
DIY built motor with haltech


new 19t v2 fs

"Information is not knowledge. The only source of knowledge is experience." Albert Einstein

whatnot

How much power loss do you think is there from the tiny turbo? How much power loss from a larger turbo? Much of daily driving is spent out of boost, and a larger turbo has much more tq out of boost. Dyno's don't show this, because you are in 5th gear and go WOT at like 2.5-3krpm. More food for though why I like a larger turbo on a DD, out of boost this car is a whole new animal, almost feels faster than a full spooled (factory 14psi) stocker. But by the time you actually hit boost, you are already pulling like crazy, and then it just gets insane progresisvely.

To go with omega's train of thought or crriteria, you do spend half you rpm IN boost with a gt30, more than half actually more like 70%+ of your time. Maybe not full spooled, but you are in boost at 3k, and you idle at 750-1000, and you really don't punch it (or shouldn't) below 2k. So you have from 3k to 6.5k IN boost with a gt30. So that actually meets your criteria. I think we can agree that no one floors their car at anything below 2k right? 2000-6500 is 4500, if you are in boost by 3k, that mean you are in boost for 3500rpm, which is 3500/4500 77% of your drivable rpm. And with a raised rpm to 8k, now you have a turbo that is good from 3k to 8k, which is 5krpm, or 5k/6k which is 83% of your usuable driving range. But below 2k when you don't want to floor it, but want a little pickup, it is great for that, one of the reasons I said makes a great DD.

In fact, I have never seen a dyno that only has positive pressrue for 2krpm. Maybee full spool for 2krpm.


Now looking at a tiny turbo, you hit 5k and you start to fall on your face harder and harder. So though you may start to spool at 2k, you hit full spool at 2.5k, your full spool 'cruises' to 5k then really starts to fall off. So you could kind of say that it is only usable from 2k to 5k or 3k rpm, so one could argue taht it is only usable for 77% as well. And below 2k, is a slow fat pig making it kind of an annoying DD. Like sheijo said about the BOV going off 4 times in one block lol.

This car is no doubt a heavy underpowered pig out of boost and it is only fun/responsive in boost or maybe above 3.5krpm IMO. But if you open it up with a larger turbo, and have a SMF, it is actually pretty fun out of boost, and again, when boost does hit, you go stupid fast. Lag is there in that you are not in boost, but it doesn't feel like lag. The dyno's I posted actually hurt my case, it doesn't look that good, but again this is 5th gear waiting to go WOT. But 1-4th gear it is great fun and the best DD feeling car IMO. Its like you are enjoying the out of boost power, and when you start to maybe feel slow, the turbo kicks in and just pulls hard untill it hits full spool, and you can only use the full spool till 4k, but that doens't mean you aren't spooling from 3k. And the barley any spool of 3k is much more more powerfull than the full spool of a tiny guy. Numbers can't really show this, it is just something you have to expereince, you don't feel any lag, you just feel great DD power and then insane power. As opposed stocker, fat pig unresponsive car, then a moderately big but quick burst to 4krpm, then 'cruising' to redline as your tq falls off the table faster and faster. Maybe others cars are better or worse at this? I don't know, I haven't had other cars to experience this "terrible" lag no fun out of boost until 4k stuff that you more expereinced guys speak of, but I don't think this car has it.

You are right about personal preference, that is why I apologized and diald it back a bit. All I was trying to do is ensure that people have the proper facts before making a purchase since you don't hear about the good qualities of a larger tubo other than top end dyno queen stuff, but there are more benefits to it than that.

Heiss

For me, it comes down to price and unfortunately i'm unable to spend more then $2k on a turbo upgrade at this point of my life (bills, mortgage, etc) which is why a small turbo which utilizes the factory manifold, fuel system, etc is what i'm currently looking at.

I do agree with whatnot when he states that he gets as much torque in low RPM's as a tiny turbo, as i've experienced it with my brothers vehicle as well as a friends vehicle. The big turbo may not be in full spool but it's probably pushing just as much or even more air then a smaller turbo.

I think we have all agreed on one thing, it all depends on what you want out of your build/turbo, how much money you're willing to spend and whether or not you rather have the hard kick of a small turbo at lower RPM vs a hard pull at high RPM that bigger turbo's provide. This thread certainly has given food for thought for future upgrades and people have done a good job giving the pros & cons of both big & small turbos. It's up to the builder/owner to research and decide what route he wants to take.

Ronin

Interesting read... lot's of good opinions and fact.

I for one, prefer an emphasis on the power band in between 2.5k and 4k.

I liked my experience at the drag strip but would NEVER choose my mods over pure straight line performance highway pull style or from a dig (even less...). It's just not my cup of tea.

Also, winter. I drive my car 4-6 months out of 12 on snow/ice tires... a big turbo would be a WASTE of money/potential during this period. In winter, you wanna keep you rev low, you want sweet ass reaction time from your engine, down low RPM. Don't talk to me about about lag being "a good thing" to keep things under control it's more like a crutch to a heavy happy right foot or A SHITTY/FINICKY drive by wire system...

Also, MY power goals WOULD be around 270whp, up from my current (see sig) numbers. I do not wanna have to replace my whole exhaust to make flow for a big turbo set-up that I would spool to it's potential so rarely. Also, I've just paid for it, it's still good, it WILL stay together for longer then 99% of aftermarket exhaust out there. IMO, after market exhaust are the sucks in terms of longevity in my kind of weather/road condition (salty/sandy, nice flavor eh?). There are better products then others but still... same goes for the intercooler. the OEM unit has amazing nice efficiency numbers, it just mostly falls short trying to inter-cool air coming out of the flame thrower that is the stock turbo pushed beyond it's efficiency. I'd stick to just replacing the flimsy charge pipes and gettign a turbo that keeps it's air relatively cool without over-working it (20ishh psi @ redline).

If I was rich and lived in California, Texas or florida or if my car was my only hobby, passion and obsession, I'd have a different "opinion". It's not the case. I wanna use my warranty I paid for as much as possible, I wanna keep cops away from me and I wanna to keep dough in my pockets... for the other pleasures of life.

That is why, for me small"ish" turbo=better.

__________________
Karussell White 2.0GT Coupe

• CP-E Intake
• TWM short shifter + TiC shifter bushing

TVONE2

I love my GT30r!

__________________
PowerAxel

genjuice

I think people under estimate the V.E. of the theta motor and I also think they under estimate how good the V.V.T is in this motor.
Im not going to get into the debate what is better, but I will tell you with my regular ol single scroll TD05 8CM hotside I can reach positive manifold pressure under 2000 rpm in first gear.

Rspecwhite

A few questions .

Why do you think a larger turbo makes MUCH more tq out of boost than a smaller one?

Where can one go to confirm that since much of your last post is based on that statement?

How do you define IN BOOST?


Oh, and for the record, I love the power of the large turbo, BUT also love the quick spoolup of the smaller ones. I want it ALL! lol

__________________
DIY built motor with haltech


new 19t v2 fs

"Information is not knowledge. The only source of knowledge is experience." Albert Einstein

Adamantine

Nope, I read it in a magazine, Men's fitness or something. Maybe bodybuilding.com.
From what I remember from the article, meats take about 4 hours to digest, the control group was given 25-30g serving of protein from meats, with a test group given 90g protein and then the two groups would go workout after enough time for it to digest. The percent improvement between the two groups after like a month were both the same.

So, it is NOT coincidental that "pure" isolate/hydrolyzed whey protein powder supplements do not go over 30g of protein (or at least not very much, maybe a gram or two). They are designed to be digested within about 30 minutes and be available for use within the next 4 hours.

The other protein mixes make use of slower digesting proteins and can go over the 30g per serving, but that's because they'll be in your digestive system longer which is how the non whey protein mixes can get around the 4 hour window.

They can be used for pre/post workouts for increased energy during your workout and/or for recovery. You can also use it as a meal substitute if you're trying to lose weight. Like instead of an actual meal, you eat a fruit, a serving of vegetables, and your protein drink.

__________________
2.0T Track sold

cdnsigop

Compound?

SJ

I love reading these kinds of threads.

IMO id prefer to run a larger turbo at lower boost. The little bit of lag is okay (If your straight line racing, you can accommodate with such things as anti-lags, wotboxs, ect.) and around turns it can be more predicable. With this car, i went a different route and very much enjoy my low end torque and being able to instantly hit boost in any gear. I have a lot of hills where i live, so its convenient on always having to downshift.

My smaller turbo is quick from a stop, has the power to smolder my tires from a 40 mph roll and will kick sideways about anytime I want. On that note, the boost does come on very fast and could get out of control if your not expecting it. Spiking from 5 psi to 22 psi in less than a second at partial throttle could be a bad thing though.

At the end of the day, its whatever makes you happy in your car. I dont understand how you can argue someones opinion is wrong?

I would like to see some more actually results of the guys running larger turbos. Just because you have power, doesnt mean you can drive lol.. I believe surf still has the record for the fastest 1/4 and hes on the stocker!

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Adamantine

Do people here really think the TD05-16/18/20g is a large turbo? While I do understand the TD05 makes the stocker look small... (small = GC stock frame turbo)

It really should be classified as a medium sized turbo cause the large turbos dwarf the TD05. By large I mean T67/GT4088 etc. with their 4" inlet pipe feeding the compressor wheel.

__________________
2.0T Track sold

whatnot

It wasn't anything official or anything, but tiny=stocker, small=evo, medium=gt28, large=gt30, huge=gt37+. That is just based off my dyno charts I happened to post, that is what I meant when I was talking.

I think al arger turbo makes much more power out of boost, realy it is but dyno. My logic behind my butt dyno guess is the less tq loss from the larger turbine nozzle flowing exhaust easier.

You could look at an N/A theta motor (no clue where to find one) and look at the tq it makes and then look at the 2.0t and look, I would wager it is much lower. Turbo's gernerally have less power loss than the supercharger, but they still have a loss, one from the restriction, and two from the energy expended to spool.

I define "in boost" as .001psig. vacuum is -.001psig in hg and lower (lower number, higher vaccuum), and once you hit 0 you are atmosphere, 14.7 (depeding where you live) and anything after that is boost, is is pressurised air. Any absolute pressure the IM sees over 14.7psi or 29.92in hg is what I am calling In boost.

Adam, thanks for that info.

SJ, I will let you ride in my car, see what you think and come to your own conclusions. Probably won't be in Nov though, I will need to take the van to fine the wheel in, but Feb I will be back out that way if there is no snow.

SJ

That sounds like a deal man.. ill have to take you for a ride in mine and you can let me know what you think!

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sheijo

the bolded portions are what the lag is better (at least I) guys are referencing. the underlined part refers to me techinically i guess, i would rather spend my focus looking for dumb tourists running out into traffic or riding their stupid rent-a-bicycles or crazy divers (people that live in major tourist cities know what im talking about) than trying to figure out how much throttle im gonna be given by the dbw when i push the pedal and if im gonna start to spool the turbo or not because i know it will quickly go from 0 to 22psi. is that me being lazy? yes. but thats how i like it

cjd82187

It has nothing to do with a heavy right foot, the drive by wire does whatever the hell it feels like. I can give it like 10% throttle to stay out of boost, a little further and its 5-6 psi, and anything after that it will spike to 20+ either part throttle or the car will go full throttle. There is no in between. Its kinda fun, but it really sucks in the rain =(

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-CJ
Bathurst Black R-Spec Owner
13.571 @ 105.71mph
Beyond Redline Stage 3 with ATP Wastegate Actuator
BR stage 3 tune for DW 750cc with my own custom CMD tuning, and WOTBOX.
No More POS SPEC... Competition Clutch Stage 4 is in!
Advan TCII 18x8.5 F, 18x9.5 R
Mixed tires =( 245/40/18 275/40/18

pwned88

I didn't read every long-winded post in this thread, but I'm gonna throw my hat in with the small turbo crowd.

I don't like the progressive spool up. I come from the world of low-revving, high torque N/A engines and I want power NAOW. I actually liked how when I got into this car I knew that around 3k-3500 she was just gonna take off. If it's gonna go from 5psi to 20 in 300 rpm I'm in, I'll drive accordingly. My driving style calls for this kind of sudden snap. I've driven a few cars that have that kind of power. Maybe winter driving has gotten me better at throttle modulation so the snap doesn't bug me?

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Karussell White 2.0T premium, 6MT
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