NGM Supercharger!!! - Page 10 - Genesis Forum: GenCoupe Hyundai Genesis Forums

tgpfarm · 03-25-2011, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nextgen03gt

Hello,

Here are a couple facts that I have found out.

The factory regulated fuel pressure is 55psi.

At that pressure, I flowed the factory injector and came up with 440cc.

Thanks TC
NGM

So, does that mean the injectors are operating around 60% duty cycle?

Injector Flow Rate (cc/min) = Engine HP x BSFC x 10.5 / (Number of Injectors x Injector duty cycle)

306 * 0.5 * 10.5 / (6 * .6) = 446.25 cc/min

I am just asking, not implying I know anything.

nextgen03gt · 03-25-2011, 11:56 AM

Hello,

We should be able to support 400-420 BHP with 440cc injectors @ 55psi and BSFC @ .55 That's with injector duty cycle @ 80%

Thanks TC
NGM

RudyH · 03-25-2011, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by briansol

But, please, do tell me, how do you plan to run boost to an ecu that doesn't even have boost tables on it?

Why do you need boost tables exactly? For a roots type supercharged engine? I am new to this so curious

tgpfarm · 03-25-2011, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RudyH

Why do you need boost tables exactly? For a roots type supercharged engine? I am new to this so curious

I am new also but I am not sure you actually need to do that. I mean they run roots superchargers with carbs. It can't be much harder than just skewing the fuel curve.

briansol · 03-25-2011, 12:59 PM

turbo or supercharger, both make BOOST. even 1 psi is enough to throw most cars off. Most n/a ECU's don't have boost tables for igntion/fuel. They only have vacuum maps. When the map tells the ecu that its over '0' vacuum, there's currently NO table to get ingition or fuel map information from, and it throws a code, and goes into limp mode.

The ecu either needs to be BLOCKED from ever seeing boost (map clamps, other hacks, etc)
or the ecu needs to be modified to know what to do with boost (aka, a reflash with positive boost tables for ignition and fuel.

nextgen03gt · 03-25-2011, 02:05 PM

Hello,

Don't take this wrong, but you are getting way too complex. Everybody goes off the deepend and makes things more complex than they really are. There is no such thing as a boosted ECU. Its all in the fuel curve. The ECU has a fuel map that is based on RPM and load. As the load increases with RPM there is more fuel and injector pulse width. It's very simple. As far as ignition tables. Everyone freaks out and says you need to be able to pull timing with boost. That's a load of crap to a point also. With the factory ECU as load increases, timing decreases. When I reflash the 2.7l ECU, I add timing because of how much load the MAF sees, it pulls way too much timing and hurts peak torque. Plus the factory is overly conservative on timing and fuel. Factory ECU's are generally very fat as load increases and pull a lot of timing. So why can we run a low boost set up without bigger injectors and tuning? Because, there is generally a lot of conservative fuel to eat up as the load and RPM increase. This is why with N/A bolt ons, headers, intakes, exhausts, you need to do a tune in order to make best power. Why, because as you increase the amount of volume through the engine, the MAF sees it as more load, which puts it in a higher load table which has more fuel. So, you have to lean out those load tables in order to make best power on an N/A setup. So to put this simple, we are using the 3-5 lbs of boost as the tune, to eat up that conservative fuel table in the higher loads. I'm not concerned about the MAF sensor as it will have enough range for a good amount of boost before it peaks. It's the MAP sensor I have to deal with since it is only 1 bar and will peak at 4.0 volts. So, I have a very simple device that will clamp the MAP at around 3.8volts.

Thanks TC
NGM

Binz · 03-25-2011, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nextgen03gt

Hello,

I'm sitting back watching this thread and I'm amazed how much negativity, controlling and power struggles I see amongst the members. Whether this is of any importance to those of you or not, I am a Godly person and live by a set of guidelines that I try to stick to. One of them is "Do unto others as you would do unto yourself". Why is there so much uncompassion amongst some of you? Anyhow, I posted up my product on my own forum and someone copied and pasted it over here. I imagine the person that did this was excited to see a forced induction product becoming available to the 3.8 Gen Coupe people. Anyhow, like I said in the past I have been bashed and told what I was going to do wouldn't work and I was going to fail time and time again in the Tiburon community and that just always fueled my fire. Well here I am 8 years later in a market that is very small and no aftermarket support what so ever except for your normal bolt ons. Why am I still here, because of all the millions I have made in this business? Hardly. It's because I have and will always have a compassion for Hyundai. I believe 100% in their product and have seen where they came from to what they have available now and up and coming and I am here to make the driving experience that much more enjoyable. I have a long history with the 2.7L that only made 140whp stock to a shop car that is now making 550whp on pump gas out of an engine that was never intended for performance. Believe me, I know. The stock heads flow horrible. I have spent countless hours, blood, sweat and tears getting to where I am now with the Tiburon community. Is the performance world a perfect world, not even close, but I always believed that someone with a compassion and loves what he does will produce quality products over someone that's just trying to make s dollar off someone.

With this kit, my goal is to bring this community as plug and play of a product as possible. Meaning fittment and little to no modification as possible. Also, I expect this kit to give the performance enthusiast many enjoyable years of service.

I will post up my research as I test various components for those of you that dont have correct information about this platform, just speculation. I believe in facts and not claims or speculation.

In the meantime, can we all have respect for one another and maybe a little compassion? We are all here to help each other not tear each other down. If we all practiced just 10% of this, can you imagine how much better the World would be?

So, just sit back and let me do my work so I can load you guys up with facts about this platform and make you all much knowledgeable of the car that you love and own. The Hyundai Genesis Coupe!!!

Thanks TC
NGM

I second that !

I have read through all the threads and man are people fast on seying the negative parts. Let him work on the project ! Let him post pictures etc.
When he will be ready he will be ready !

I emagine having to read all the negative comments and it must be hard for Him to stay positive on the project .

I am sure that 99% of the people on this thread cannot produce what this company is doing for our GC. Let him work !

Keep up the good work !

briansol · 03-25-2011, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nextgen03gt

Hello,

Don't take this wrong, but you are getting way too complex. Everybody goes off the deepend and makes things more complex than they really are. There is no such thing as a boosted ECU. Its all in the fuel curve. The ECU has a fuel map that is based on RPM and load. As the load increases with RPM there is more fuel and injector pulse width. It's very simple.

Of course. But when said load goes above 0 milibars, it's called boost, of which there are no tables for fuel nor ignition, and will bust out with a code/limp mode.

Ie, at column 9, you're ok, but at column 10, you enter boost zone, and the factory 3.8 ecu does not have these colums to read said load in the first place.

(a hondata image, but the same concept applies)

Quote:

As far as ignition tables. Everyone freaks out and says you need to be able to pull timing with boost. That's a load of crap to a point also. With the factory ECU as load increases, timing decreases. When I reflash the 2.7l ECU, I add timing because of how much load the MAF sees, it pulls way too much timing and hurts peak torque. Plus the factory is overly conservative on timing and fuel. Factory ECU's are generally very fat as load increases and pull a lot of timing.

I will agree with this to a certain extent, but the details are off topic.

However this:

Quote:

So why can we run a low boost set up without bigger injectors and tuning? Because, there is generally a lot of conservative fuel to eat up as the load and RPM increase.

is just plain wrong. There are NO COLUMNS in the table, period. retard, advanced, neutral-- it doesn't matter, because they simply DON'T EXIST in the first place and will shut the car down into limp mode the second the map sees boost.

Quote:

It's the MAP sensor I have to deal with since it is only 1 bar and will peak at 4.0 volts. So, I have a very simple device that will clamp the MAP at around 3.8volts.

1 bar = atmosphere. There is basically 0 room for boost on a 1 bar map.

Clamp = hack job piggy back trickery that should be avoided at all costs IMO.

Again, I applaud your effort to make a kit, but I would also suggest into getting with one of the tuners to get a flash/tune to go along with it.

You'll get better numbers, better results, and be a HELL of a lot safer, and my respect. To some people, that's more important.

nextgen03gt · 03-25-2011, 03:13 PM

Hello,

Like I said. Your to complex, but that's ok it's something to take up your time. Your basing your findings off of a MAP based tuning. This has a MAP and a MAF. The MAF looks at the load as the weight of the incoming air in mg, kg ect. Anyhow, honestly I don't like to type and this takes too much time trying to explain to someone that is set on having all the answers so I will move forward from here.

Thanks TC
NGM

**CrookedH** · 03-25-2011, 03:18 PM

From the dyno's I've see on stockish 3.8's they're really not running all that rich. Most I've seen have been in the 12:1 range, which for N/A is somewhat rich, but not rich enough to support 80whp extra.

Do you plan on using any fuel tuners? If so, that would put a lot of the debate to rest. Even SFR said it's a bad idea to boost without a tune, I think they know a thing or two about the ECU as they're one of only 2 companies in the US that can tune the Delphi ECU. They have also actually tuned a V6 before, not just winging it, know what I mean?

Are you planning on using a zener diode to clamp the map?

Are there ANY details you can give out about the tuning?

I think saying "keep it simple you're too complex" is a bad idea, you're acting like everyone on this site is a bunch of morons and you're a car god. I know you said this isn't your first rodeo and the same can be said for most of the people asking questions.

nextgen03gt · 03-25-2011, 03:30 PM

Hello,

That's fine, I won't address anything anymore. I'll just do what I do. You can talk amongst yourselves.

Thanks TC
NGM

**CrookedH** · 03-25-2011, 03:33 PM

wow, ask valid questions and get an answer like that? Glad I dont have too worry about doing business with you.

Merkles · 03-25-2011, 03:34 PM

Its nice that everyone has their opinion to voice in NGM's thread but lets just let the man showcase his work.

**CrookedH** · 03-25-2011, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merkles

Its nice that everyone has their opinion to voice in NGM's thread but lets just let the man showcase his work.

Ngms thread? As he stated himself, he didn't start the thread. Why is it so wrong to ask questions and expect an answer, even if its "we're not ready to divulge that info yet". It's the same questions anyone should ask before they purchase something like this for their car.

genjuice · 03-25-2011, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nextgen03gt

Hello,

Like I said. Your to complex, but that's ok it's something to take up your time. Your basing your findings off of a MAP based tuning. This has a MAP and a MAF. The MAF looks at the load as the weight of the incoming air in mg, kg ect. Anyhow, honestly I don't like to type and this takes too much time trying to explain to someone that is set on having all the answers so I will move forward from here.

Thanks TC
NGM

Like I have said before

"The amount of intake air flow must be inputted to ECM in order to determine the fuel injection quantity. To measure the pressure inside of intake manifold, MAFS is used at idle and MAPS is required at accelerating. MAPS(Manifold Absolute Pressure) calculates the amount of air indirectly as measuring the pressure inside of intake manifold. This system is called a Speed-Density type.
MAPS transfers analog output signal which is proportional to the change of intake manifold pressure, then, with this signal and RPM, ECM calculates the amount of intake air flow."

HMASERVICE

Lambda2 · 03-25-2011, 04:32 PM

nextgen, I don't think briansol is trying give you any negativity on your project, but rather pointing out concerns or issues that he might have experienced. I think people of all experience could learn a thing or two with the comments that he has made. His reasoning of the complexity is necessary for this ecu. if you want to be successful with the project (i do hope that you do suceed), you should take it as pointers.

briansol · 03-25-2011, 05:06 PM

Thank you for the support.

I've tuned 25+ cars in my day on all walks of life, various software, all motor, n/a, import, domestic, you name it as a free-lance tuner (ie, i never worked for a shop. friends told friends who told friends i can help them because their car ran mint after i was done with it)

I'm just trying to save fellow gen coupe owners from buying into unfounded hype, and when your car blows up, you'll get a "sorry" from the dealer and a "not our problem" from the s/c mfg'er and you end up having to spend 10 grand out of pocket for a new motor.

Do it right, or don't do it at all.

tgpfarm · 03-25-2011, 06:40 PM

To me, with maps like that (CAPA : Eaton Superchargers) you don't need a "fuel table". You just need a way to add X amount of fuel.

Hell if RRM's piggyback thing worked or dynojet made a fuel controller this would be awesome.

Need a way to clamp the the MAP sensor.
A way to increase fuel rate, in general. Not per rpm.

What am I missing?

With a turbo your VE is all over the place and as such you need finer fuel trims.
With a supercharger, you should have pretty flat curves.

phase autos · 03-25-2011, 07:27 PM

firstly i agree with 80% of ngms statements
secondly who are you all to ask him or anyone to justify anything! so what have we here!

the kit is not finished, we have no description of content, and a developer trying to do his job as i have here inthe past!

he has stated facts will come as they are available! wait or p/o simple!

you will be lucky if he comes back on to disclose info due to your insults!
(you call them questions i and believe he will see them as an insult to his inteligence)

Quote:

Originally Posted by briansol

Thank you for the support.

I've tuned 25+ cars in my day on all walks of life, various software, all motor, n/a, import, domestic, you name it as a free-lance tuner (ie, i never worked for a shop. friends told friends who told friends i can help them because their car ran mint after i was done with it)

pa...i have tuned near on 5000 cars of all types and i for one see your point but i also knowing how many delco vcm's work see his too!

I'm just trying to save fellow gen coupe owners from buying into unfounded hype, and when your car blows up, you'll get a "sorry" from the dealer and a "not our problem" from the s/c mfg'er and you end up having to spend 10 grand out of pocket for a new motor.

Do it right, or don't do it at all.

pa...this has been my moto here from day 1 and my business template since 88

Quote:

Originally Posted by genjuice

Like I have said before

"The amount of intake air flow must be inputted to ECM in order to determine the fuel injection quantity. To measure the pressure inside of intake manifold, MAFS is used at idle and MAPS is required at accelerating. MAPS(Manifold Absolute Pressure) calculates the amount of air indirectly as measuring the pressure inside of intake manifold. This system is called a Speed-Density type.

pa...do you have this info as a fact or is it speculation? i am on the fence! the gm delphi uses maff for all tuning load and a limp table for the map! the map is only used as a fail safe! hence maffless tunes on your gm range!

MAPS transfers analog output signal which is proportional to the change of intake manifold pressure, then, with this signal and RPM, ECM calculates the amount of intake air flow."

HMASERVICE

Quote:

Originally Posted by tgpfarm

To me, with maps like that (CAPA : Eaton Superchargers) you don't need a "fuel table". You just need a way to add X amount of fuel.

pa...you always need a fuel table even carby's have jets and transition ports and venturi sizing as their table (load v fuel required in a crued maner but still a table!)

Hell if RRM's piggyback thing worked or dynojet made a fuel controller this would be awesome.

Need a way to clamp the the MAP sensor.
A way to increase fuel rate, in general. Not per rpm.

What am I missing?

With a turbo your VE is all over the place and as such you need finer fuel trims.
With a supercharger, you should have pretty flat curves.

please ve tables are similar turbo or roots with bpv as in this case! but yes for arguments sake i get your point! it would take 2 months to describe and explain so i no go there!

in summary:

let the poor bugger do his job sort it out and they once done ASK all you like don't DEMAND as you have been!

if then there are still genuine concerns point them out!

till then innocent till proven guilty!!!

keep up the good work ngm would love to see more facts like 440cc@55psi i for one apreciated it!

PandaSmuggler · 03-25-2011, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrookedH

Ngms thread? As he stated himself, he didn't start the thread. Why is it so wrong to ask questions and expect an answer, even if its "we're not ready to divulge that info yet". It's the same questions anyone should ask before they purchase something like this for their car.

I think maybe TC should start a new thread something along the lines of, "NGM Supercharger development thread". I'd be pretty interested in reading up on updates, much like PA's S/C development. I don't plan on doing anything with my car in the near future, but I always find it exciting to see what my car's potential is. I don't think your questions and Briansol's are bashing, but some people are exclaiming "OMG people are going to get screwed!" It's too early to say that, it's not like he has this kit on his website with an "Add to cart" link and telling us "trust me it works!" like another vendor has done in the past. I can understand the animosity towards vendors promising everything and delivering nothing, but I think it's too early to jump the gun.

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