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#1 Old 12-29-2012, 01:17 PM
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Manual Transmission development thread

I've placed this in the general engine section as we don't have a general transmission section, if a moderator feels the need to move it, by all means.

A brief history;
As many are aware and some may not, the Genesis Coupe uses an in-house developed and built M6VR-series manual transmission. Hyundai denotes the transmissions with a 1 or a 2 based on internal gearing. The transmission is a 6-speed, single reverse gearing with conical syncros, actuated shifting and a internal hydraulic cylindrical clutch with a hardened brass throw out bearing. All remains true regardless of the engine it's bolted to.

Hyundai initially released the transmission with composite materials that were later replaced with metalic versions due to poor weather conditioning, fluid reactions and premature wear. Hyundai also made an adjustment to the engagement point of the shift lever to control an issue with gear engagement. In later development the bearings were revised and a generic spec fluid was advised.

Purpose of this thread;
To document, gain support and hopefully release a rebuild kit for the M6VR transmission to have a quality and reliable transmission to support nearly any HP or TQ modders could throw at it. As well as to develop a stronger and quality DMF.

Test subjects;
I currently have the following:
-2x spare M6VR1 transmissions w/ slave cylinders and TOB's
-1x spare '10 2.0T OE clutch
-1x spare '10 2.0T OE pressure plate
-1x spare '10 2.0T OE DMF flywheel
-1x spare '13 2.0T OE DMF flyhweel

Due to the parts I have, I am limited to 2.0T's. Anything developed for the 2.0T will be using the pre-'13 240mm clutch size rather than the 260mm. Anyone willing to part with any 3.8 parts to further the cause I would appreciate it, I have limited funding for this just as a heads up so I won't be buying parts unless I have to. Any 3.8 owners that would be willing to participate with testing or parts, I will do my best to arrange for test parts to be free.

Who I'll be working with;
Currently I've teamed up with Jack's Transmissions in Colorado Springs, CO. for the transmissions.
No current partner for the flywheel development. Please follow along for future updates to this.


FAQ's
How long till we see a result? - There is currently no schedualed timeline.

What can we expect? - Hopefully we'll be able to come up with either completely new internals that will eliminate the current issues with the transmission or confirm the need for a change in assembly practices. As well as hopefully being able to have someone supply a quality and solid DMF replacement for the weak and poorly constructed OE unit, enabling high HP/TQ street builds with none of the drawbacks of going to a SMF.

Price? We know it's not going to be free but ball park us. - Prices will be determined by the final manufacturer of the products, sorry.

How does this differ from the last time you (Snoopy) went after the M/T? - This time I (Snoopy) will be going at it from a completely unhindered and much more hands on approach as I won't be working directly with Hyundai and being mandated to follow their guidelines. This enables me to outsource work and use aftermarket components.

How much is all this R&D going to cost? - No clue. Everything will most likely be funded by me so anything that has a heavy cost will eventually be done, but will add to the dev. time.

Parts that will help this; if you have one, simply PM me with your expectations, need the engine and model year of the part as well.
-M/T mount (few of them, working on a new design or a DIY mod)
-3.8 flywheel (any year)
-3.8 pressure plate (any year)
-3.8 clutch disc (any year, preferably not destroyed but doesn't need to be in "like new" condition)
-2.0T flywheel (2013)
-2.0T pressure plate (2013)
-2.0T clutch disc (2013)
-3.8/2.0T(2013 only) transmission gear set (I realise this will be the hardest to aquire)

Dontations
Some people have felt that in order to speed things along they would help fund the projects. This is not of my doing but of the communitys, I will not be asking anyone for any donations, however
if you'd like to contribute that is up to you.

What will the donations go to? - Currently any donated funds will be going to transporting the transmission to Jack's Transmissions in Colorado. Any remaining funds will be used either if needed by Jack's or
to return the transmission upon completion.

What happens to the money if nothing comes of this? - That will be put to vote by the community. Since this is my project and my endeavor, if the current plan ends up a bust I have no problem refunding the
resources, it just might take me some time. Some might feel that the money is a risked investment and if nothing happens then so be it. However, I won't be deciding this, the people who donated will be.

What if there is money left over at the end of this? - I'll return it in reverse order as those who most recently would be the ones who had needlessly donated.

How do I donate? - Simply paypal money to snoopy0812@hotmail.com. This is the safest method as it offers donators to open a dispute if they feel something is hinky. It also allows me to keep track of donations the
easiest.

Can I track the donations? - Absolutely. This project is different as it's complete transparency with the community. IRL names and email addresses are removed to protect peoples privacy however their
user tags are open knowledge and are what I will be using for identifiers on the list. The list can be found Here.

Notes:
IMPORTANT NOTE!! V6's use a different bell housing, meaning if you have a V6, you have to use a V6 transmission. This is because the starter is located in a different spot on the engines.

Fluid Recommendations
Absolute best for our type of synchros is apparently Mitsubishi DiaQueen 75W85 GL-4 (Mitsu PN 3717610) but it's really really expensive.. like over $100 for the amount you'd need to fill it once never mind a flush. If you got it in for the very first fill, the cost won't be so bad but yeah.. it's costly. This info comes from multiple sources, even some of the BMW and Subbie guys swear by it.

Second option: Less cost prohibitive is unequivocally Redline MT-85. Pure MT-85, zero shockproof of any kind. I can't say it's hands above Hyundai's new blend but it's got a great rep and is highly recommended by MT transmission builders everywhere.

Third option: Would be Shell Spirax S6 GXME 75w-80. It's designed to be the last oil you'll ever put in your transmission. It's rated for stupid amounts of torque, is designed to reduce operating temperatures (further protecting your components), all weather usage and more. It's the Rotella T6 of transmission oils, overkill. Only reason I rate this below the Red Line is because it's actually harder to get in the quantity most would need it in. It's about the same cost as the Red Line as well. Another reason I rate third is because it doesn't come in the OE grade 75w-85 and while that might not bother some it will a few. It runs thinner at temperature than Red Line does, this benefits the GC because our transmission has very narrow oil passages between our cones and this makes for improper lubrication when the oil can't get in there in the first place.

Fourth option: Hyundai's current blend, which also happens to be made by Shell (at least in northern countries like Canada and Russia). It's basically Pennzoil Synthetic 75w-90 now but Hyundai hasn't adjusted their tech papers to match.

Ones to avoid would be Royal Purple, GM/ACDelco SynchroMesh, Lucas, Honda, and Nissan fluids.

Now these recommendations are based purely on longevity and maximum protection, not performance.

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Last edited by Snoopy0812; 10-14-2013 at 05:10 PM. Reason: updated.
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#2 Old 12-29-2012, 01:17 PM
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This post will be dedicated to the clutch/flywheel system.

Info added: 29/12/2012
While doing an indepth look at the clutch system, I discovered something VERY disheartening to me. A company that I was very eager to work with as they have a very good name in the BMW and Audi communities for producing uprated DMF's, turns out, they are the makers of our piece of sh*t combo to begin with. LUK Germany (pronounced Luke if I'm correct) are the manufacturers of our components, which means if my talks with them do not go well, I'll have to start looking at different companies.

I also made an interesting observation on my old flywheel. The dogs (spring retainers) on the primary mass side are stamped in. In order to confirm the rest of the DMF's internals I will have to take it apart, which I will wait to do incase LUK can't help us and I have to ship it somewhere for them to use as a starting point.

Here are some pictures I took of each of the units sides and some details I noticed.

Rear of OE DMF, notice the two semi-circle rises? That's where the springs reside. You'll also notice the counter weights that have been tack welded in place.


Front side of OE DMF, what is primarily seen is the wear surface of the secondary mass.


Side view of OE DMF, there seems to be some sort of layered stamped plate between the masses, I won't know more until I take it apart.


Front side of the OE clutch, written indicators show it as the T/M side of the plate. Hyundai opted for an organic sprung clutch.


Rear side of the OE clutch. Despite the multitude of rivets, the clutch is not rebuildable.


Front side of the OE pressure plate. The fingers are very light, narrow and springy, while this has it's benefits, it limits how much effective force can be applied, making the pressure plate the weak link in the combo for power transfer.


Rear side of the OE pressure plate. Nothing too impressive to note here, the friction surface however has small ridges that despite over 20,000km's have not gone away and zero material transfer, meaning it was not applying all the force it could.


LUK markings on all related components.
Flywheel;


Clutch;


Pressure plate;


Info Added 12/02/2013
2013 Flywheel





Comparison video:


Info Added 09/08/2013

My thoughts on clutches? Read these three posts.

Snoopy clutch thoughts part 1
Snoopy clutch thoughts part 2
Snoopy clutch thoughts part 3

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Last edited by Snoopy0812; 08-09-2013 at 12:43 AM. Reason: info.
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#3 Old 12-29-2012, 01:18 PM
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This post will be dedicated to the transmission system.

Info added: 29/12/2012
I will be picking up the transmissions tomorrow.

Info added: 30/12/2012
Transmissions are now in my garage. These are pulled transmissions that were failures, not from wrecks, I have a personal history with both of them







I'll be working on the first transmission for the majority of the project I think as it's actually got the better internals in terms of wear and damage. Transmission 2 will be more than likely kept in tact for reference or for shipping out if need be. Eventually I aim to have both fully built.

My starting rig to get the transmission to drain;



Some close ups of the exterior of the transmission;





I'm pretty sure this is the gear case breather.. will know more when I get it apart.


Reverse gear sensor.






Shift lever input.


Input shaft, slave cylinder and throw out bearing.


Output shaft.


Built a quick stand for it so no more worries about it falling over. Not all that pretty but does the job and will double as a flat bench when I crack it in half.



Last update for today,

Some random component pics.






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#4 Old 12-29-2012, 02:05 PM
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And this is why we love Snoopy
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#5 Old 12-29-2012, 04:56 PM
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second post updated.

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#6 Old 12-29-2012, 05:10 PM
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Interesting that LUK was behind the M/T components. I wonder if the low quality is because of what Hyundai wanted and had the money to put forward while BMW and Audi probably have a bigger budget to work with for the R&D.
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#7 Old 12-29-2012, 06:21 PM
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In for updates. Definitely like your methodology surrounding flywheels more than the typical answer on this site.

1. I refuse to spend >2k on a new flywheel from Hyundai, especially considering its a design flaw.

2. I refuse to put anything other than a DMF on this car, as I want to maintain the stock anti-chattering effects of the DMF

Unfortunately, 1 and 2 mean I have 0 options at this point... as with everyone else who desires the same things I do.

I really appreciate your time in this issue... during my searches, you are one of the only pioneers seeking stock-like transmission/drivetrain improvements. Quality and comfort > "tuner race car" for a DD (IMO).
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#8 Old 12-29-2012, 07:06 PM
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After taking out a gear set with a SMF, I won't be using one on my car ever again either. I'm dealing with my f*cked up DMF because it's better imo than the alternatives.

Just a heads up, the kit will double as a VR1 to VR2 conversion for gears as well. The 4.229 1st is a very annoying gear ratio for anyone running more than an intake and makes no sense what-so-ever in my mind. I also hate the fact that I have to shift TWICE to get to 60mph or raise my rev limiter.
I was just given a contact to look into and I'll discuss with them what we might be able to come up with as the 3.8's get more power and will benefit from a longer 1st gear, say a 3.331 or something instead of the stock 3.848.

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#9 Old 12-29-2012, 07:09 PM
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#10 Old 12-29-2012, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snoopy0812 View Post
After taking out a gear set with a SMF, I won't be using one on my car ever again either. I'm dealing with my f*cked up DMF because it's better imo than the alternatives.

Just a heads up, the kit will double as a VR1 to VR2 conversion for gears as well. The 4.229 1st is a very annoying gear ratio for anyone running more than an intake and makes no sense what-so-ever in my mind. I also hate the fact that I have to shift TWICE to get to 60mph or raise my rev limiter.
I was just given a contact to look into and I'll discuss with them what we might be able to come up with as the 3.8's get more power and will benefit from a longer 1st gear, say a 3.331 or something instead of the stock 3.848.
Oh Lord.... me and my 50/63 hear this with a resounding thud....

P.s., about the SMF and the gear set.... what happened???
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#11 Old 12-29-2012, 07:59 PM
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pardon my ignorance but what is "50/63"?

Regarding the SMF, I installed a complete clutchmaster kit, SMF, pressure plate, FX200 clutch kit during the transmission testing with Hyundai, after a short period of time, on a brand new transmission, there was massive noises coming from the car when in gear, could be heard inside the car, outside the car, accelerating, deccelerating, neutral with the A/C on. Going through the gears gradually went from difficult to impossible and never improved during Hyundai's requested 1000km break in period. As soon as I hit that 1K it was back in the shop and the transmission was on the ground. We cracked it apart and there was bearings and syncro's everywhere they were not suppose to be. Turned out that CM center balances their flywheels, contrary to Hyundai who have the flywheels balanced to the engine. I was lucky that the transmission took all of the damage, we dropped my pan and luckily found no indication of damage. Since Hyundai's instructions were to not race the engine (which I followed), if I hadn't, it could have toasted my engine too. Flywheel came off, a brand new DMF went in, bolted my CM pressure plate and clutch to the DMF and put yet another new transmission in my coupe, this time with Hyundai's "improved internals" that took a month to arrive from Korea and it's been decent ever since. Not good enough for me though and I honestly don't trust it for my future goals. My DMF broke a short while after the break in period but I told Hyundai to not bother replacing it unless they improved it, they've never gotten back to me on that and since the 2013's now use a different flywheel, they probably never will.

P.S.
updated first post with helpful parts list, parts that will aid me in success for all GC kind (except those A/T guys...)

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#12 Old 12-29-2012, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snoopy0812 View Post
pardon my ignorance but what is "50/63"?

Regarding the SMF, I installed a complete clutchmaster kit, SMF, pressure plate, FX200 clutch kit during the transmission testing with Hyundai, after a short period of time, on a brand new transmission, there was massive noises coming from the car when in gear, could be heard inside the car, outside the car, accelerating, deccelerating, neutral with the A/C on. Going through the gears gradually went from difficult to impossible and never improved during Hyundai's requested 1000km break in period. As soon as I hit that 1K it was back in the shop and the transmission was on the ground. We cracked it apart and there was bearings and syncro's everywhere they were not suppose to be. Turned out that CM center balances their flywheels, contrary to Hyundai who have the flywheels balanced to the engine. I was lucky that the transmission took all of the damage, we dropped my pan and luckily found no indication of damage. Since Hyundai's instructions were to not race the engine (which I followed), if I hadn't, it could have toasted my engine too. Flywheel came off, a brand new DMF went in, bolted my CM pressure plate and clutch to the DMF and put yet another new transmission in my coupe, this time with Hyundai's "improved internals" that took a month to arrive from Korea and it's been decent ever since. Not good enough for me though and I honestly don't trust it for my future goals. My DMF broke a short while after the break in period but I told Hyundai to not bother replacing it unless they improved it, they've never gotten back to me on that and since the 2013's now use a different flywheel, they probably never will.

P.S.
updated first post with helpful parts list, parts that will aid me in success for all GC kind (except those A/T guys...)
50/63 is the trin of my T3 turbocharger.... 1st gear is useless since I don't even have enough load to spool up the turbo...

What do you think about launching on second gear?
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#13 Old 12-29-2012, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
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What do you think about launching on second gear?
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#14 Old 12-29-2012, 09:19 PM
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chetman, don't go OT.

I wouldn't launch in 2nd just because of how tall our 2nd gear is, I've done it, but I still think it's faster to start in 1st and speed shift vs. starting in second.

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#15 Old 12-29-2012, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snoopy0812 View Post
chetman, don't go OT.

I wouldn't launch in 2nd just because of how tall our 2nd gear is, I've done it, but I still think it's faster to start in 1st and speed shift vs. starting in second.
Thanks for the info!
I've got a pretty laggy turbo and was wondering if the extra load would help me spool a bit quicker...

And so from what I've read, SMF's are a no-no? I have a CC Flywheel and now I'm a tad worried :/
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#16 Old 12-29-2012, 09:52 PM
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Subbed.

Perhaps a Taller 6th gear for better MPG? (not sure if right term)

looking forward to whatever Snoopy does.

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#17 Old 12-30-2012, 03:40 AM
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in just because i like the way this guys brain works.

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#18 Old 12-30-2012, 04:42 AM
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I am going to watch this thread, snoopy is dedicated.

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#19 Old 12-30-2012, 07:19 AM
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definitely subbed. i wish i wouldve seen this thread earlier, ive gone through 3 transmissions and im stock power. i couldve seen if there was anyway to get the broken ones donated to you....depending on the price i will be one of the first ones to tryout any upgrades.

@Snoopy0812 i dont know much, and i had to re-read your posts to understand lol but i definitely wouldn't be opposed to throwing some $$ your way to help. i dont make alot but if i have some extra i would definitely be glad to help, i plan on upping the power in the future and so far i have no faith in these trannys.

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#20 Old 12-30-2012, 08:15 AM
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In for more info... Don't really care much about the DMF thing, been running a SMF for over 20k miles without issues. Wouldn't mind some taller gears though, or a transmission that doesn't need redline heavyweight shockproof to not grind 2nd and 5th.
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Hyundai 10-Speed Transmission Under Development AutoGuide.com AutoGuide.Com News 0 01-20-2012 03:10 PM
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