electronic throttle and gear position sensor; are we getting ****ed? - Hyundai Genesis Forum
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post #1 of 47 Old 02-18-2009, 03:06 PM Thread Starter
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electronic throttle and gear position sensor; are we getting ****ed?

So this is my title this is what bogs me with modern technology....
On the caliber srt4 and mazdaspeed 3 and many other cars the lower gears are restricted thru boost to make a safe soft sport car for example the caliber srt4 makes 280 whp in 5 th gear WOW but run it throu gears and in first and second its limited to 150-200whp WHY? to eliminate wheel hop etc...but in making a safer fast car they are making it boring for enthusiasts like us. Now i dont know if they did the same kind of trick on the genesis (praise god ) but it alienates the fun of having something more than a base car. If you look at the neon srt4 it had cable trottle and 230whp first gear till 5th gear and was praised by enthusiasts now the caliber is more powerfull (in fifth gear!!!) and nobody likes it with reason!!! and it show on 1/4 mile too! a 230whp does 14.0 100mph and 280whp does 14.7 101mph.

Food for tought!
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post #2 of 47 Old 02-18-2009, 03:14 PM
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chip.

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post #3 of 47 Old 02-18-2009, 03:19 PM
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i sure hope they dont do that to the car but theres always a way

I speed by hybrids so they hear me killing the enviorment!
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post #4 of 47 Old 02-18-2009, 03:21 PM
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I wouldn't worry about it. The only reason Dodge reduced tq & hp through those gears is because they're trying to make it easier to gain traction on a FWD car.

Current car: 2006 honda civic si navi
Future car: 2010 gen coupe 3.8 track 6MT (for now)
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post #5 of 47 Old 02-18-2009, 03:35 PM
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Anyways, it's like the saying goes, whoever makes the law also makes the way around it. Wouldn't worry about something that a reflash could solve.

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post #6 of 47 Old 02-18-2009, 03:39 PM
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and the realtune 500+whp caliber does 11.6 :0


he will be dropping the caliber and will be mainly tuning 2.0T gen coupes!

and yes the speed3 is limited in 1-2 not the speed6 tho!

2006 mazdaspeed6

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post #7 of 47 Old 02-18-2009, 04:44 PM
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The TCS has shown, at least in the korean dyno figures, to decrease the amount of power put down on the road. So when you wanna race, in a closed course race track of course, turn that thing OFF.

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post #8 of 47 Old 02-18-2009, 05:17 PM
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Electronic throttle control is a blessing for us engine calibrators. When the consumer pool is diverse as a 16 year old first timer to a 98 year old great-grandmother, you have to design a functional package that will allow you to market a car with a 100,000 miles warranty, please the masses, and keep the bean counters happy.

For example, we program the ETC to a maximum of 25% when vehicle speed is zero, so that free-revving is limited to a "safe" 4000rpm, instead of bouncing off the revv limiter for no reason.

This is the same reason why Chrysler limits torque output in lower gears, to reduce drivetrain stress, and increase the life of the components. Thus, lower warranty claims and better 'consumer' reports. The side affect is you also have traction instead of none.

We also program the ETC so that normal transient between 0 - 30% pedal position is actually 0 - 15% throttle, but a faster transient may open to the actual demanded position of 30%. There are a number of reasons for this type of functionality.

Anyhow, most aftermarket tuners such as COBB, UpRev, etc, will program an ETC map in addition to the normal ignition and fuel tables. However the tricks we use to limit the throttle actuator can be used to create the illusion of more power. COBB programmed the ETC map on the new GTR with a 1.25 scalar, so that for a 10% pedal postion, the throttle is open 12.5%, which gives the illusion that you all of a sudden gained power and response.

Moral of the story, just because you have the pedal at ~50%, doesn't mean your throttle is matching. Float that one around for a bit.
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post #9 of 47 Old 02-18-2009, 07:25 PM
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Great stuff Hagen !
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post #10 of 47 Old 02-18-2009, 08:44 PM
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Hagen where do you work? You seem to know a lot about engine management.
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post #11 of 47 Old 02-19-2009, 08:43 AM
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When you get into obscene power, I think that it might be a good idea to limit the amount of that power to the ground when taking off, like what was done on the GTR. It seems it would improve launch or am I confused?

Nevermind, I re-read Marshall's post & I think I answered my own question, Oh & thanks Marshall Hagen for your posts, you do seem very knowledgeable.

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post #12 of 47 Old 02-19-2009, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_desmo View Post
WHY? to eliminate wheel hop etc...but in making a safer fast car they are making it boring for enthusiasts like us.
It's not to eliminate wheel hop, and it's not to make it safer either.

Have you ever heard of torque steer? From Wikipedia:

Quote:
Torque steering is the influence of the engine torque on the steering for some front-wheel drive vehicles. For example, during full acceleration the steering may pull to one side, which may be disturbing to the driver. This either causes a tugging sensation in the steering wheel, or else the car veers from the intended path. As the torque steer effect is directly related to the engine torque capabilities, this problem becomes more and more evident with high output engines with strong torque in the low RPM range.
It's a problem with powerful front wheel drive cars. It's an inherent problem with the packaging, and there is a lot you can do to reduce it, but it's always going to be there.

Now, if you read any of the reviews of the Mazdaspeed3, you'll remember that even with that electronic limiting, all the reviewers STILL complained about torque steer, so they didn't take it all the way down.

If you actually think about it, using the electronic throttle to limit the available power to minimize torque steer would actually make the car faster because the car is going to put the maximum amount of controllable power down, leading to better launches. It's like the difference between doing a burnout and actually launching. Sure, you can blast every available amount of power down and roast your tires, but you're not going anywhere. Sure, Mazda and Dodge could have let you put all the power down in those gears, but you wouldn't be going as fast.

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Now i dont know if they did the same kind of trick on the genesis (praise god ) but it alienates the fun of having something more than a base car.
Why would they? The Genesis is rear wheel drive. You don't need to limit torque steer if the front wheels aren't driven.

Quote:
If you look at the neon srt4 it had cable trottle and 230whp first gear till 5th gear and was praised by enthusiasts now the caliber is more powerfull (in fifth gear!!!) and nobody likes it with reason!!! and it show on 1/4 mile too! a 230whp does 14.0 100mph and 280whp does 14.7 101mph.
First off, the Neon SRT4 may not have used computer calibration to control the power in early gears, but what it did have were very restricted factory suspension settings. From the factory, it had almost 0 camber. While this is great for straight line traction, because it keeps the tire flat during straight line acceleration, it's not so good for carving corners. So, someone like you is happy because you feel like you're getting all the power, and someone like me is upset, because the handling is sacrificed for drag racing. Pfeh.

Second, if you actually did some research you'd find that the Mazda doesn't just cut torque arbitrarily. It cuts torque based on a combination of throttle position AND steering angle. Meaning, if you can keep the wheels under control, you'll keep more power. If they get wild, the Speed3 cuts it down a bit to keep the car in line.

Third, There are a lot of reasons that no one likes the Caliber SRT4, and really, it's not because of the electronic torque cut. It's because it's heavy, ugly, and is not fun to drive. There are also a lot of reasons that it's 7/10th's of a second slower than the Neon SRT4 through the quarter. There's the fact that it's more than 500 pounds heavier, there's the fact that it has huge heavy wheels and tires that cause it to be difficult to launch smoothly, and even with the electronic limiting, Edmund's said the Caliber has "tear-the-wheel-from-your-hands-with-the-violence-to-snap-knuckles torque steer." which also makes it harder to launch well.

Actually, I'll go so far as to say that the torque cut might be one of the few things keeping the Caliber SRT4 from being even slower. We already know it's chassis can't put the power down as it is, so if you put even more power down, you'd just have more problems.

Quote:
Food for tought!
Not really. You didn't fully understand why they put the electronic limitations on these powerful front wheel drive cars, and it doesn't even apply to the Genesis Coupe, since it's not a front wheel drive car.

Electronic throttle calibration is just another tool for car designers and tuners. As with any tool, if it's used intelligently, as in the case of the Mazdaspeed3, you make the car better.
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post #13 of 47 Old 02-19-2009, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N2OInferno View Post
Hagen where do you work? You seem to know a lot about engine management.
I am a powertrain and OBD engineer for PACCAR North America.

Powertrain & OBD Systems Engineer

I calibrate and tune 1750 lb-ft torque engines.
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post #14 of 47 Old 02-19-2009, 01:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshall.Hagen View Post
I am a powertrain and OBD engineer for PACCAR North America.
I think I just had an orgasm....


Please tell me you are getting a gen soon
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post #15 of 47 Old 02-19-2009, 01:50 PM
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there's good and bad. Good is the fact that you can program a launch control. Bad is if programing is off your car could detonate itself at start up.
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post #16 of 47 Old 02-19-2009, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlesHBoX View Post
I think I just had an orgasm....


Please tell me you are getting a gen soon
Closing on my first home in a couple weeks, I think the Gen Coupe will have to wait until fall/winter. Looking at a 2.0 Track, for only the reason of my 65 mile round-trip commute will be more wallet friendly.

It will be a good compromise between my current toys.

Powertrain & OBD Systems Engineer

I calibrate and tune 1750 lb-ft torque engines.
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post #17 of 47 Old 02-19-2009, 02:33 PM
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Hope you stay on this forum as your posts are very knowledgeable. As far as electronic throttle control, I believe most cars are switching from cable to electronic. I am coming from a turbocharged Scion tC which has electronic. And from what I remember on one of my Scion forums, it was found that at 100% pedal position, there was only 85% throttle position. I think engine management was able to fix it but I don't know if any power was to be found in doing that.
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post #18 of 47 Old 02-19-2009, 03:36 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshall.Hagen View Post
Closing on my first home in a couple weeks, I think the Gen Coupe will have to wait until fall/winter. Looking at a 2.0 Track, for only the reason of my 65 mile round-trip commute will be more wallet friendly.

It will be a good compromise between my current toys.
NOOOOOOOOOOOO


ADRIAAAAANNNNN
Quote:
Originally Posted by satoman44 View Post
Hope you stay on this forum as your posts are very knowledgeable. As far as electronic throttle control, I believe most cars are switching from cable to electronic. I am coming from a turbocharged Scion tC which has electronic. And from what I remember on one of my Scion forums, it was found that at 100% pedal position, there was only 85% throttle position. I think engine management was able to fix it but I don't know if any power was to be found in doing that.
+1
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post #19 of 47 Old 02-19-2009, 03:42 PM
traction control off =]
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshall.Hagen View Post
I am a powertrain and OBD engineer for PACCAR North America.
where did you go to school? if you dont mind me asking, and what was your major?

"I downshift next to hybrids so they can hear me killing the enviroment "


-Beyond Redline Stage 3
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post #20 of 47 Old 02-19-2009, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by cant_stop_spinning View Post
where did you go to school? if you dont mind me asking, and what was your major?
Western Washington University

Double major in Plastics & Composites Engineering and Vehicle Engineering.

My senior thesis was to develop a composite intake system resistant to ethanol corrosion, create a functionality algorithm for an engine management software using an alcohol sensor to detect ethanol content (basically making a flex-fuel system), and design a matching camshaft profile for it to make optimum power on a 599cc I4 revving to 14,500 through a 20mm restrictor. Ended up making 89bhp on our engine dynamometer. That is nearly 150 bhp per liter, breathing through a hole the size of a nickel

Needless to say it was a good resume builder.

Eye candy (can’t post much more than that because it was published and is now intellectual property of the university ).

(cutaway shot)

Powertrain & OBD Systems Engineer

I calibrate and tune 1750 lb-ft torque engines.
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