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post #141 of 150 Old 02-16-2017, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Tuffbuffalooo View Post
I think amount of air that'll be flowing won't be enough to make go into limp mode or anything, I mean we sway headers without tuning for them all the time, that drastically changes cylinder filling and dumping. But if it does fail it'll be stuck on the long runner setting you'll most likely be on the richer side.
I know you can put in static parts without tuning for them and the system makes its corrections. But in this case it's an active addition that can fail. Headers don't tend to fail... And I'm talking only about a setup where you've tuned to take advantage of the active intake. I wouldn't bother with the variable intake manifold without also having the ecu tuned to take advantage. To use your analogy, I'm talking about headers breaking on a car tuned for them, and you're talking about headers on a stock ecu system. If you tune for headers, then remove them, do you have a problem?

And on the second point, Yeah, I agree. I keep turning it over in my head and I can't see a scenario where the actuation or linkage failing results in a lean charge. I think I'm just being paranoid.

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Originally Posted by titan2782 View Post
The BK2 uses a MAP, not MAF so it's irrelevant. The ECU has fuel trims which will add or remove fuel based on O2 readings to manage AFRs (effectively addressing any changes in flow). If any one of these systems fails or there is a slight dependency in then the ECU will go into safety mode.
It's slightly more relevant to those of us with BK1's but let's move on. I guess you're right. Let the ECU do its job and deal with the unpleasantness of limp mode as an alternative to scorched valves. Fair enough for the parts available to us to cobble together. As I said above, I think I might just be paranoid.

'11 3.8 R-spec
Custom BTR tune(kinda meh, better than old power axel)
TWM short shifter
Grimmspeed phenolic spacer
Grimmspeed balanced intake manifold
Throttlebody coolant loop bypass
Mishimoto oil cooler and remote filter
Weapon R SRI
Jury-Rigged Fluidampr
Super Swanky custom twin-tip single 3" exhaust! (that's a mouthful).
BC 2-way coilovers
Subframe collars
Urethane diff bushings(Not a good Idea)
19" x9"9(front) x 10"(rear) Forgestar Cf5V w 265 30 and 295 30 tires
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post #142 of 150 Old 02-17-2017, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Tuffbuffalooo View Post
It is a two piece like the coupe, although the upper piece can bolt on to the coupe's lower piece I'd still get the full sedan IM, weight reduction, temp reduction, reusable gasket and good to great mating. I haven't bought it yet because I wanted to make sure this worked before invvesting anymore money lol.
If you are GDi be careful with major NA plenum changes like this. You can potentially burn a piston without tuning each cylinder properly.

2013 GC Tsukuba Red 3.8 Lambda II GDI 6-SPD M/T
PSM Coilovers
Turbokits.com Turbo kit with 6266 Precision BB Turbo (446whp/405wtq @ 12psi)
Driveshaft Shop CF Driveshaft
SPEC Stage 3+ SMF Clutch
Magnaflow CBE with X-pipe and rear resonator
MaxBore Bored TB (83.5mm to 78.75mm taper)
Carolina Dyno modified surge tank and ported intake manifold
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post #143 of 150 Old 02-17-2017, 08:27 AM
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on a stock tuned ECU I wouldn't be concerned. On a custom tuned ECU I would be though. It's a manifold, not FI. Think about it, both 3.8's will draw ~375cfm per cylinder and the ECU will know how to handle 100% VE and it has ST and LT fuel trims to correct commanded AF vs actual AF.

The best flowing runners (unported) according to the graphs going around are ~330cfm. This will be on the very top end. The difference is that the efficiency of low and mid-range RPM will be improved so potentially better VE. I think the best I've ever data logged on my car was 85% VE (recall from my poor memory).

I don't have one of the manifolds to measure the runner dimensions but I would assume they are much closer to each other (if not equal) than the coupe manifold configuration and based on the photos, the manifold looks pretty well balanced so the current concern of one or two cylinders per bank leaning out due to runner imbalance is not an issue here.

If the cylinders per bank are the same and the heads per bank are the same and now the runners are the same, there should be no need for individual cylinder tuning unless you're trying to squeeze the absolute most from it. The variances should be very minimal.

Not saying it won't need tuning, what I'm saying is that I wouldn't be concerned at all running this manifold with a stock tune. But I always recommend anyone doing changes have an actual wideband installed and datalog.

Edit: This is a technical discussion, not an argument so please read it in that tone. If i'm incorrect in anyway, please point it out.

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Engine Leashes, BK1 & BK2 3.8 intake manifold porting
https://www.facebook.com/3point8GenesisCoupe


2014 3.8 R-Spec 326HP/290TQ (89* temps, 91 octane)
3.91 Gear Swap, SFR Custom Tune, 80mm TB, PnP manifolds, Ark GRiP v2 CBE + test pipes,
NST pulleys, K&N Drop in, coolant bypass, Phenolic Spacer, IAT relocate & shave,
better ground mod, modified stock airbox
Engine leash, Megan trans mount, 235/35/19 (F) 255/35/19 (R) Hankook V12, EBC Yellow pads

Last edited by titan2782; 02-17-2017 at 08:32 AM.
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post #144 of 150 Old 02-17-2017, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by titan2782 View Post
on a stock tuned ECU I wouldn't be concerned. On a custom tuned ECU I would be though. It's a manifold, not FI. Think about it, both 3.8's will draw ~375cfm per cylinder and the ECU will know how to handle 100% VE and it has ST and LT fuel trims to correct commanded AF vs actual AF.

The best flowing runners (unported) according to the graphs going around are ~330cfm. This will be on the very top end. The difference is that the efficiency of low and mid-range RPM will be improved so potentially better VE. I think the best I've ever data logged on my car was 85% VE (recall from my poor memory).

I don't have one of the manifolds to measure the runner dimensions but I would assume they are much closer to each other (if not equal) than the coupe manifold configuration and based on the photos, the manifold looks pretty well balanced so the current concern of one or two cylinders per bank leaning out due to runner imbalance is not an issue here.

If the cylinders per bank are the same and the heads per bank are the same and now the runners are the same, there should be no need for individual cylinder tuning unless you're trying to squeeze the absolute most from it.

Edit: This is a technical discussion, not an argument so please read it in that tone. If i'm incorrect in anyway, please point it out.

Not saying it won't need tuning, what I'm saying is that I wouldn't be concerned at all running this manifold with a stock tune. But I always recommend anyone doing changes have an actual wideband installed and datalog.

330 is a bit conservative based on my flow testing of the G6DJ surge tank. I am just warning you guys that the DI ECU is extremely touchy and paranoid. I tried mucking with the O2 signal variances and had nothing but problems with the ECU locking down to limp mode.
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2013 GC Tsukuba Red 3.8 Lambda II GDI 6-SPD M/T
PSM Coilovers
Turbokits.com Turbo kit with 6266 Precision BB Turbo (446whp/405wtq @ 12psi)
Driveshaft Shop CF Driveshaft
SPEC Stage 3+ SMF Clutch
Magnaflow CBE with X-pipe and rear resonator
MaxBore Bored TB (83.5mm to 78.75mm taper)
Carolina Dyno modified surge tank and ported intake manifold
Projector switchback front signal LED bulbs
LED fog and rear turn bulbs
Wing badge
Enkei RSM9 (8.5" front - 10" rear)
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post #145 of 150 Old 02-17-2017, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Ryengoth View Post
330 is a bit conservative based on my flow testing of the G6DJ surge tank. I am just warning you guys that the DI ECU is extremely touchy and paranoid. I tried mucking with the O2 signal variances and had nothing but problems with the ECU locking down to limp mode.
I am completely unfamiliar with the flow bench tests vs real world so it could be more, could be less on the actual vehicle. But if we assume 100% VE @ 375cfm per runner, that won't change with this manifold swap. The bottom runners exits feeding the head are 64mm all around and that's the same on the head so it's unlikely to outflow the current setup.

What I'd be concerned about would be positive pressure readings on the MAP. Not sure how the manifold was tuned, but if it does end up seeing positive pressure, how will the ecu handle it? I'm going to say it will go into limp mode for sure. That can be answered by evaluating the goal of the sedan and I'm going to assume it was meant to have great around-town performance which is why it got the variable manifold and the coupe did not.

As far as the DI ECU, I'd agree with you (especially since you have far more exp with it than I do) and from what I've observed externally, it doesn't like change. So this will be a great experiment all around.

3point8 Performance
Engine Leashes, BK1 & BK2 3.8 intake manifold porting
https://www.facebook.com/3point8GenesisCoupe


2014 3.8 R-Spec 326HP/290TQ (89* temps, 91 octane)
3.91 Gear Swap, SFR Custom Tune, 80mm TB, PnP manifolds, Ark GRiP v2 CBE + test pipes,
NST pulleys, K&N Drop in, coolant bypass, Phenolic Spacer, IAT relocate & shave,
better ground mod, modified stock airbox
Engine leash, Megan trans mount, 235/35/19 (F) 255/35/19 (R) Hankook V12, EBC Yellow pads
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post #146 of 150 Old 02-17-2017, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by titan2782 View Post
I am completely unfamiliar with the flow bench tests vs real world so it could be more, could be less on the actual vehicle. But if we assume 100% VE @ 375cfm per runner, that won't change with this manifold swap. The bottom runners exits feeding the head are 64mm all around and that's the same on the head so it's unlikely to outflow the current setup.

What I'd be concerned about would be positive pressure readings on the MAP. Not sure how the manifold was tuned, but if it does end up seeing positive pressure, how will the ecu handle it? I'm going to say it will go into limp mode for sure. That can be answered by evaluating the goal of the sedan and I'm going to assume it was meant to have great around-town performance which is why it got the variable manifold and the coupe did not.

As far as the DI ECU, I'd agree with you (especially since you have far more exp with it than I do) and from what I've observed externally, it doesn't like change. So this will be a great experiment all around.
With the turbo on my OE ECU trying to get it inspected I can tell you that just above 1psi is about as far as it will allow it. It took me almost 2 weeks to baby the turbo setup in order to set all of the monitors for inspection.
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2013 GC Tsukuba Red 3.8 Lambda II GDI 6-SPD M/T
PSM Coilovers
Turbokits.com Turbo kit with 6266 Precision BB Turbo (446whp/405wtq @ 12psi)
Driveshaft Shop CF Driveshaft
SPEC Stage 3+ SMF Clutch
Magnaflow CBE with X-pipe and rear resonator
MaxBore Bored TB (83.5mm to 78.75mm taper)
Carolina Dyno modified surge tank and ported intake manifold
Projector switchback front signal LED bulbs
LED fog and rear turn bulbs
Wing badge
Enkei RSM9 (8.5" front - 10" rear)
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post #147 of 150 Old 02-17-2017, 08:58 AM
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that's good to know.

3point8 Performance
Engine Leashes, BK1 & BK2 3.8 intake manifold porting
https://www.facebook.com/3point8GenesisCoupe


2014 3.8 R-Spec 326HP/290TQ (89* temps, 91 octane)
3.91 Gear Swap, SFR Custom Tune, 80mm TB, PnP manifolds, Ark GRiP v2 CBE + test pipes,
NST pulleys, K&N Drop in, coolant bypass, Phenolic Spacer, IAT relocate & shave,
better ground mod, modified stock airbox
Engine leash, Megan trans mount, 235/35/19 (F) 255/35/19 (R) Hankook V12, EBC Yellow pads
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post #148 of 150 Old 02-19-2017, 01:49 AM
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You guys are touching on what I've been trying to figure out. So we agree that

1. I'm paranoid and the difference in VE will be so minimal as to be within design margins

AND 2. Worst case scenario this system will almost certainly fail toward rich afr and eventual limp mode prior to potential damage via detonation... Excellent

'11 3.8 R-spec
Custom BTR tune(kinda meh, better than old power axel)
TWM short shifter
Grimmspeed phenolic spacer
Grimmspeed balanced intake manifold
Throttlebody coolant loop bypass
Mishimoto oil cooler and remote filter
Weapon R SRI
Jury-Rigged Fluidampr
Super Swanky custom twin-tip single 3" exhaust! (that's a mouthful).
BC 2-way coilovers
Subframe collars
Urethane diff bushings(Not a good Idea)
19" x9"9(front) x 10"(rear) Forgestar Cf5V w 265 30 and 295 30 tires
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post #149 of 150 Old 02-19-2017, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Odelagt View Post
You guys are touching on what I've been trying to figure out. So we agree that

1. I'm paranoid and the difference in VE will be so minimal as to be within design margins

AND 2. Worst case scenario this system will almost certainly fail toward rich afr and eventual limp mode prior to potential damage via detonation... Excellent
I'm not sure I agree with the VE change not being significant. Overall, yes it may balance from the inlet. If the fuel tables are tweaked to account for the known runner limits then if you re-balance the runners the airflow will be higher on one side and lower on the other.
Detonation can occur regardless of the MAP's voltage and the state of the ECU's fuel compensation method. Again, if the ECU's fuel map is set in open-loop to deliver X ml/sec for stoich for cyl X and you change the runner design to cyl X then all bets are off on what it will do.

2013 GC Tsukuba Red 3.8 Lambda II GDI 6-SPD M/T
PSM Coilovers
Turbokits.com Turbo kit with 6266 Precision BB Turbo (446whp/405wtq @ 12psi)
Driveshaft Shop CF Driveshaft
SPEC Stage 3+ SMF Clutch
Magnaflow CBE with X-pipe and rear resonator
MaxBore Bored TB (83.5mm to 78.75mm taper)
Carolina Dyno modified surge tank and ported intake manifold
Projector switchback front signal LED bulbs
LED fog and rear turn bulbs
Wing badge
Enkei RSM9 (8.5" front - 10" rear)
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post #150 of 150 Old 03-19-2017, 09:23 AM
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Been a great read so far, great to see a solid attempt at a naturally aspirated build
Any updates as yet?

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