Will new traction control act sort of like LSD? - Genesis Forum: GenCoupe Hyundai Genesis Forums
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#1 Old 03-05-2012, 08:18 AM
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Question Will new traction control act sort of like an eLSD?

New 3 stage traction control as I understand it:
Full on: controls both engine power and brakes wheels individually.(same as now)
Mid setting: controls brakes only,does not cut power
Full off: all traction control off but anti-lock brakes still active.

If you were in the mid stage of the traction control that only controls brakes and not the engine and if you were sliding around a corner (or if only one tire was spinning off the line) it would apply the brakes on the wheel that is spinning which would direct some power to the other wheel (which would give sort of the same results as an LSD.) It's kind of a crude electronic LSD? I guess it would depend on how abruptly it applies the brakes on the spinning wheel how well it would work. Am I out to lunch on this?

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#2 Old 03-05-2012, 08:32 AM
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No.

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#3 Old 03-05-2012, 08:40 AM
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Wow you really put a lot of thought into that. Thanks for your input!

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#4 Old 03-05-2012, 08:56 AM
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That's like what Ford is doing with their new Focus ST, instead of giving it an actual LSD, they use brakes to achieve (somewhat) the same effect.
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#5 Old 03-05-2012, 09:17 AM
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Not really, no.
An LSD is a performance feature, and is beneficial in all driving situations. Traction control is a safety feature, which limits the cars ability to accelerate to prevent you from breaking the car loose.
The LSD works to keep BOTH tires moving equally, even if one is lifted off of the ground. This makes for better all around traction, and is pretty much required for any type of drifting in a rwd car. All traction control will do is try and keep the car from sliding by applying the brakes/cutting power, and needs to be OFF for any type of aggressive driving.


Or, in other words,
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Originally Posted by trustinger View Post
No.

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#6 Old 03-05-2012, 09:33 AM
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#7 Old 03-05-2012, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin529 View Post
Not really, no.
An LSD works to keep BOTH tires moving equally, even if one is lifted off of the ground. All traction control will do is try and keep the car from sliding by applying the brakes/cutting power.The LSD is a performance feature, and is beneficial in all driving situations. Traction control is a safety feature, which limits the cars ability to accelerate to prevent you from breaking the car loose.
Not really ,no that's called a solid or welded differential and it makes it difficult to go around corners. Second part: please read above - mid setting of new traction control does not cut power.

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#8 Old 03-05-2012, 09:42 AM
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Obviously an LSD is better because you're not wasting any power or brakes it's just dividing the power (and not equally) to the two wheels. What I'm saying is it will give a similar result especially when trying to get moving when one tire has almost or no traction.
It would be different from the Ford system because it would require a wheel to actually start spinning before it would intervene so you would have to be driving much more aggressively than in the Ford system.

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#9 Old 03-05-2012, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by ControlFreak View Post
Not really ,no that's called a solid or welded differential and it makes it difficult to go around corners. Second part: please read above - mid setting of new traction control does not cut power.
you should read up on what a LSD is and what a locker is and the difference between the 2 in how they are used in a differential.

that will help to understand the question you are asking.

DIFFS FOR DUMMIES

open dif: 1 wheel peal.

LSD: under load will lock wheels together (equal power), however will work independently like an open diff when going around corners when not under hard load. so you dont get the jumping feeling/jerky

Locker/welded: both wheels more at same speed all the time when cornering will cause inside wheel to "hop" to travel same distance then outside wheel

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#10 Old 03-05-2012, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ControlFreak View Post
Obviously an LSD is better because you're not wasting any power or brakes it's just dividing the power (and not equally) to the two wheels. What I'm saying is it will give a similar result especially when trying to get moving when one tire has almost or no traction.
It would be different from the Ford system because it would require a wheel to actually start spinning before it would intervene so you would have to be driving much more aggressively than in the Ford system.
ok based on OP i can see kinda maybe in some way slightly... idk see waht your saying, but no. putting brakes on one tire does not mean power goes to the other wheel. it just means killing your brake pads. this will not behave like a electronic LSD. This will help you no peal out, but i won't do you any good because you won't launch. The traction control will always kill power, thats it.

I am not a list of mods but what i know and share:
http://www.gencoupe.com/2-0t/94778-fuel-system-what-you-need-know.html
http://www.gencoupe.com/2-0t/86146-wastegate-101-a.html
http://www.gencoupe.com/2-0t/91199-compressor-maps-how-read-them.html

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#11 Old 03-05-2012, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by cris90 View Post
ok based on OP i can see kinda maybe in some way slightly... idk see waht your saying, but no. putting brakes on one tire does not mean power goes to the other wheel. it just means killing your brake pads. this will not behave like a electronic LSD. This will help you no peal out, but i won't do you any good because you won't launch. The traction control will always kill power, thats it.
Funny that's exactly what Ford claims happens with their "torque vectoring system".
Please read above - mid setting of new traction control does not cut power.

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#12 Old 03-05-2012, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by ControlFreak View Post
Funny that's exactly what Ford claims happens with their "torque vectoring system".
Please read above - mid setting of new traction control does not cut power.
this system is for FWD cars. it slows down the inside wheel to pull it around a corner to cancel (so they say) under-steer.

not cutting the power but using brakes to slow down the wheel.

this system would be like the tcs system in the EVO X

will not act like a LSD in any way but will give a feeling of having one. not trasfering the power but yet taking it away from you like moto gp guys do with trail braking (applying rear brake thru a turn to slow down wheel but keeping the throttle the same for exit speed)

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#13 Old 03-05-2012, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6ix View Post
this system is for FWD cars. it slows down the inside wheel to pull it around a corner to cancel (so they say) under-steer.

not cutting the power but using brakes to slow down the wheel.

this system would be like the tcs system in the EVO X

will not act like a LSD in any way but will give a feeling of having one. not trasfering the power but yet taking it away from you like moto gp guys do with trail braking (applying rear brake thru a turn to slow now wheel but keeping the throttle the same for exit speed)
The TCS in the EvoX is very different, seeing how it is AWD instead of driving two wheels.
By that logic, it makes perfect sense for the new Gen's TCS to be like the Ford, since the Gen is also 2WD, just in the rear.
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#14 Old 03-05-2012, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6ix View Post
this system is for FWD cars. it slows down the inside wheel to pull it around a corner to cancel (so they say) under-steer.

not cutting the power but using brakes to slow down the wheel.

this system would be like the tcs system in the EVO X

will not act like a LSD in any way but will give a feeling of having one. not trasfering the power but yet taking it away from you like moto gp guys do with trail braking (applying rear brake thru a turn to slow down wheel but keeping the throttle the same for exit speed)
You've got some reading to do my friend.You're living in the past,embrace the future don't fear it.
"Torque vectoring control uses the Focus braking system to imitate the effect of limited-slip differential, constantly balancing the distribution of engine output between the driven front wheels to suit driving conditions and road surface. When accelerating through a tight corner, the system applies an imperceptible degree of braking to the inside front wheel, so that more engine torque goes to the outside wheel, providing additional traction, better grip and improved vehicle handling."

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#15 Old 03-05-2012, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElDominio View Post
The TCS in the EvoX is very different, seeing how it is AWD instead of driving two wheels.
By that logic, it makes perfect sense for the new Gen's TCS to be like the Ford, since the Gen is also 2WD, just in the rear.
try reading my post again i said the system is "like" the EVO X system. Using an active yaw control system to apply each brake individually.

my fault for thinking that ppl on here would know anything about that system either...again my fault.

OP question was "will the new system be like having a LSD"
answer is no! it may "feel" like one for those who have never had one but it does not act in any way like a mechanical "locker"

to further explain this the system that ford has developed is to help with the tourq steer (take hand off wheel mash gas in a fwd CAR car pulls to the right or left) that plagues high hp FWD cars by using the brakes to slow down the wheel that has the power stoping the wheel from spinning (lost traction and cause the car to drive straight/in the direction the wheels are pointing)

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#16 Old 03-05-2012, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6ix View Post
try reading my post again i said the system is "like" the EVO X system. Using an active yaw control system to apply each brake individually.

my fault for thinking that ppl on here would know anything about that system either...again my fault.

OP question was "will the new system be like having a LSD"answer is no! it may "feel" like one for those who have never had one but it does not act in any way like a mechanical "locker"

to further explain this the system that ford has developed is to help with the tourq steer (take hand off wheel mash gas in a fwd CAR car pulls to the right or left) that plagues high hp FWD cars by using the brakes to slow down the wheel that has the power stoping the wheel from spinning (lost traction and cause the car to drive straight/in the direction the wheels are pointing)
That's not what I said please read again.
You do realize you're saying the same thing as I am here right?

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#17 Old 03-05-2012, 11:00 AM
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LSD is intended to make the 2 wheels spin at the same speed no mater if they are the front, rear or all

this systems function is to slow one wheel down so the other can gain traction and put the power to the wheel that has the most traction at any given point so power is always on the road. (2 wheels traveling an different speeds.)

how can you say they are anything alike?

might feel like it but not the same thing.

"****ing a guy in the ass might "feel" the same but ill take a ***** any day of the week."
if that makes more sense to you guys

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#18 Old 03-05-2012, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by ControlFreak View Post
That's not what I said please read again.
You do realize you're saying the same thing as I am here right?
i understand what you are saying but the "transfer" of power to one wheel or the other is not what an LSD does. and you will never get the same performance out of this new system then you would if you just put in an LSD.

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#19 Old 03-05-2012, 11:05 AM
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That depends greatly on the software... They may of written that into the system, but since they are not advertising torque vectoring, I highly doubt it.

The way I understand the 2013's system is that the primary intervention for wheel spin is power cut, and the braking system used as part of the stability control. I *think* what they are doing is providing a mix-mode where the traction control is turned off, but stability control is left on, but set to allow a greater slip angle. If this is the case it would control wheel spin in the "On" mode, and not in the mid, or off mode. Thus becoming a one wheel wonder.

Now if they did write the software to try to stop a single wheel from spinning, they it could produce an LSD like effect (though, it will cook your rear brakes pretty quick, and still wouldn't work as well). In all reality the amount of brake force required to overcome engine torque and force the other wheel to spin faster would be pretty significant; which is why brake only torque vectoring is very subtle and integrates into the VSC to also cut power. (Such as the Ford Focus Base model) They don't just slam the brake on to one wheel with the engine at full power and turning (especially a rear wheel!)

High performance torque vectoring (Such as that used by Porsche) is used with an electronic differential, not a pure open diff. In addition to using brakes, the system also ties into the VSC to reduce power and control wheel spin.

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#20 Old 03-05-2012, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ControlFreak View Post
Funny that's exactly what Ford claims happens with their "torque vectoring system".
Please read above - mid setting of new traction control does not cut power.
ok when i say kills power not "limits throttle" i mean, go outside turn your car on turn traction control off hold brakes and try to accelate what happens? you don't move, if you do move it's very slow, why? because your brakes. little off the brakes slightly and watch your rpm gauge go up... and your car still moving slow... why? because the brakes are "killing" reducing, limiting, stopping, preventing, restricting, hp from reaching your tires to apply force onto the road giving thrust that results in the movement of the car the normal traction control actualy limits throttle, go on snow cover road with transtion control on have see what happens you won't be able to get high rpm.

now with this "new" set up it will let you rev all you want but the brakes will only get tighter and tighter untill you get tranction.

I am not a list of mods but what i know and share:
http://www.gencoupe.com/2-0t/94778-fuel-system-what-you-need-know.html
http://www.gencoupe.com/2-0t/86146-wastegate-101-a.html
http://www.gencoupe.com/2-0t/91199-compressor-maps-how-read-them.html

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