Stutter in low boost - Hyundai Genesis Forum
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post #1 of 52 Old 06-21-2016 Thread Starter
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Stutter in low boost

So have been rockin the SFR 1.5 canned tune for a couple months now.
durring this time i have had this stutter that is almost like a vaccum leak or fuel cut.

not noticeable when under full throttle.

it is near impossible to catch video of it.
i had one GREAT run down the 1/4 and have been chasing demons since.

performance mod list:
Competition clutch stg2
SMFW
HKS Blow off Valve
FMIC
Hard turbo piping
coolant bypass
AEM Cold Air intake
HKS Legamax exhaust
Secondary cat delete
NGK 1 step colder plugs

In the quest to find this issue i have found this:
---custom short ram intake tore the boot from the piping to turbo - replaced with AEM intake
---Bad band clamp on turbo piping - replaced band clamp
---sagging intercooler piping on hot side - built retaining bracket
---pressure tested intercooler for leaks - pressure held 20 minutes no drop
---cleaned and tightened all band clamps
---small vacuum leak found at intake - replaced faulty vacuum line
---blow off valve was not holding pressure correctly and letting off strange - replaced BOV
---tested Wastegate - function within specifications
---Regapped plugs to eliminate possible blow out (the right way with a wire gapper)
At the dyno made 227hp/313tq 17psi boost before the repairs
currently at 254hp/387tq 20.2psi boost (5th gear pulls)

the car moves, but this stumble is right n the middle of the daily driving range and impacting my fuel economy. Surprisingly i dont run this thing up and down the track 24/7...i have to drive it

Please keep the flaming down to a minimum.
This stutter is not showing up on any diagnostic equipment
Significantly more noticeable with AC on and TCS on.
Almost gone completely with TCS off and ac off.
No CEL.
issue shows up under these conditions:
Low boost (0-5psi)
50% pedal
35% throttle
4th and 5th gear
Clears up after throttle opens up.

My question (I know it took a bit to get here)
What should i look into checking next?
My next 2 avenues are:
throttle body - sluggish actuator movement? vacuum leak?
tune - something with timing and throttle position

what do you guys think?

is there any Gen coupe peoples in the Austin area that would be willing to drive it and help diagnose it?

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Last edited by cycon82; 06-21-2016 at 10:25 AM.
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post #2 of 52 Old 06-21-2016
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describe the stutter..... any changes in engine sound, exhaust tone (popping? muted?)... does it shake the car or is it a smooth but hesitant to accelerate?

AC on will add load to the engine - if it makes a difference, it could be related to the demand/absolute load placed on the engine - that would point me to tune or injectors. Crapped up injectors usually don't have problems in a certain RPM range though.
TCS on shouldn't have any effect unless your tires are incorrectly sized.... I get a fuel cut kind of feeling and TCS light blinking on my winters because my rear is the wrong profile, but it happens at all RPMs under higher load, so I'll assume your tires are correct and that's not the problem.

What are you using to diagnose? Are you taking logs? I'd be curious to see the load, throttle position, injector duty cycle, manifold pressure, timing advance, wideband reading and Vehicle Speed sensor readings when it happens - might provide some insights.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKJode View Post
describe the stutter..... any changes in engine sound, exhaust tone (popping? muted?)... does it shake the car or is it a smooth but hesitant to accelerate?
the studder is similar to bad gas or vacuum hesitation. no tone changes, no popping. it feels like it is dropping in and out of boost while accelerating.
I know that the car in the video is not mine, but it hesitates similar to mine.
I will try to get video of it.
https://youtu.be/DzyxG4TVprs
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AC on will add load to the engine - if it makes a difference, it could be related to the demand/absolute load placed on the engine - that would point me to tune or injectors. Crapped up injectors usually don't have problems in a certain RPM range though.
makes sense. i have cleaned the injectors (the good way not just the liquid way) no real difference.
a similar description of this issue was the original "aggressive throttle" component of the SFR tune. Brought it up to Jay and have not gotten a definitive answer.
https://www.gencoupe.com/2-0t-discuss...esitation.html
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TCS on shouldn't have any effect unless your tires are incorrectly sized.... I get a fuel cut kind of feeling and TCS light blinking on my winters because my rear is the wrong profile, but it happens at all RPMs under higher load, so I'll assume your tires are correct and that's not the problem.
255/40/18s on both sides. no TCS flash, no TPMS lights. TCS does keep my boost from going beyond 17 psi and it goes up to 21 psi when it is off.
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What are you using to diagnose?
Snap-On Solus scanner
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Originally Posted by TKJode View Post
Are you taking logs?
Yes i am, but im not 100% sure how to get the logs off the scanner and to be displayed on a computer
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKJode View Post
I'd be curious to see the load, throttle position, injector duty cycle, manifold pressure, timing advance, wideband reading and Vehicle Speed sensor readings when it happens - might provide some insights.
my tablet with Dashcommand does show a timing drop down to -4 degrees at the point. and it seems like my throttle pulls back then jumps open when it clears up

HKS SSQV BOV | HKS Exhaust | Cat delete | Innovate LC-2 wideband and gauge | Competition Clutch Stg 2 clutch and SMFW| Torque Solutions Poly bushings | Mishimoto FMIC | CX Racing IC Piping White | Eibach Sportlines | Staggered TSW Tremblants | 2011 Headunit and display swap | Custom short shifter | Triple gauge pod | Prosport Evo gauges | HID headlight upgrade | HID Fog lights | LED High Beams | Switchback DLRs | COB Angel eyes with red Demon eyes | R-Spec Spoiler......Why? Because Racecar

Last edited by cycon82; 06-21-2016 at 05:16 PM.
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Quote:
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my tablet with Dashcommand does show a timing drop down to -4 degrees at the point. and it seems like my throttle pulls back then jumps open when it clears up
Assuming that's timing advance, the negative value means your timing is being retarded .... the question now is why.

SFR wouldn't put such values in their tables, so something is likely commanding it back.... knock sensors and O2 sensors are the usual culprits.

See if you can log the voltage on the primary o2 sensor - it's a narrow band so it's just gonna flip flop a bit normally since you'll be in closed loop as you're not WOT - you'll want to see if it acts strangely/differently at that point vs. any other time you're in that RPM range.... check it in gears where you don't get that issue accelerating at same throttle/load, then do it again in 4th & 5th where you get that issue and compare.

If it flatlines while your wideband is showing a normal near-stoich mix, something is up with the sensor. But, If your wideband reports a very rich or lean in that situation, it may not be the sensor (as it would flatline low or high in a constant lean or constant rich mix) - it may still be the ECU doing something weird commanding a timing retard and possibly funky injector duty cycle (though it doesn't seem like that's a case from prior reviews)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKJode View Post
Assuming that's timing advance, the negative value means your timing is being retarded .... the question now is why.

SFR wouldn't put such values in their tables, so something is likely commanding it back.... knock sensors and O2 sensors are the usual culprits.

See if you can log the voltage on the primary o2 sensor - it's a narrow band so it's just gonna flip flop a bit normally since you'll be in closed loop as you're not WOT - you'll want to see if it acts strangely/differently at that point vs. any other time you're in that RPM range.... check it in gears where you don't get that issue accelerating at same throttle/load, then do it again in 4th & 5th where you get that issue and compare.

If it flatlines while your wideband is showing a normal near-stoich mix, something is up with the sensor. But, If your wideband reports a very rich or lean in that situation, it may not be the sensor (as it would flatline low or high in a constant lean or constant rich mix) - it may still be the ECU doing something weird commanding a timing retard and possibly funky injector duty cycle (though it doesn't seem like that's a case from prior reviews)

knock would be a common answer for observed timing retard for no reason. in the past this could be anything from an exhaust rubbing something to a loose bolt somewhere. not sure how sensitive the knock sensor is on this car to this type of stuff just yet.
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post #6 of 52 Old 06-22-2016 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKJode View Post
Assuming that's timing advance, the negative value means your timing is being retarded .... the question now is why.
Yes. the timing is going down to 4 degrees retard then right back up to 10-14 degrees advanced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKJode View Post
SFR wouldn't put such values in their tables, so something is likely commanding it back.... knock sensors and O2 sensors are the usual culprits.
i would not think that SFR would put something into the tune like that either. my only idea was if a component of the tuen might have been corrupted. it is data.
Knock sensor sounds like a viable possiblity. o2 is showing normal movement. and if the o2 were to cause the timing pull, it would happen slower and throw a code. The SMFW does cause the clutch to chatter and as knock sensors begin to show age, they become more sesnitive (at least that is how they worked on most of the other cars i have had including the tiburons)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKJode View Post
See if you can log the voltage on the primary o2 sensor - it's a narrow band so it's just gonna flip flop a bit normally since you'll be in closed loop as you're not WOT - you'll want to see if it acts strangely/differently at that point vs. any other time you're in that RPM range.... check it in gears where you don't get that issue accelerating at same throttle/load, then do it again in 4th & 5th where you get that issue and compare.

If it flatlines while your wideband is showing a normal near-stoich mix, something is up with the sensor. But, If your wideband reports a very rich or lean in that situation, it may not be the sensor (as it would flatline low or high in a constant lean or constant rich mix) - it may still be the ECU doing something weird commanding a timing retard and possibly funky injector duty cycle (though it doesn't seem like that's a case from prior reviews)
I will hook up the Solus today and try to get a decent data log that i can post up.
I am also going to take a look into the knock sensor and see if i can get a logged value as well when the issue happens

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knock would be a common answer for observed timing retard for no reason. in the past this could be anything from an exhaust rubbing something to a loose bolt somewhere. not sure how sensitive the knock sensor is on this car to this type of stuff just yet.
I agree! sometimes it takes someone to throw ideas out and giving that second set of eyes to solve the problem!

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So reading up a bit in this thread: https://www.gencoupe.com/2-0t-discuss...-question.html

Interesting how timing retards to 4 degrees BTDC when this guy lifts on the pedal.... much like yours (except your foot is obviously still down) ... if yours is doing it with normal ABS & REL Throttle Position values, definitely should check the knock sensor values. If your ABS / REL TP values are changing as well when hesitating, the problem may lie elsewhere.... pedal position sensor, VSS/TCS issue as you have a square wheel setup.

FWIW, there seems to be a few threads about early 2.0T's getting the same issue, especially in higher gears. Seems like the knock sensor is a diaphragm type that is particularly sensitive to certain frequencies.... things like chattery SMF clutches & hard engine mounts could resonate at certain frequencies causing the sensor to trip ... definitely something to log and check.

For the sake of getting a really clean, unintrusive log, run the test w/o TCS on and see what happens with the timing..... does it retard it as aggressively (or at all)?

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so if you identify its the knock sensor, you might want to build a cheap set of det cans and take a listen while the knock sensor itself is typically a bit crude, the software behind it is likely very refined. i have seen the sensor pickup knock that i cannot hear (with det cans) but i believe if you have a false knock event, you would be able to identify it more easily than the sensor can, if its in the same frequency and amplitude range as the knock itself
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKJode View Post
So reading up a bit in this thread: https://www.gencoupe.com/2-0t-discuss...-question.html

Interesting how timing retards to 4 degrees BTDC when this guy lifts on the pedal.... much like yours (except your foot is obviously still down) ... if yours is doing it with normal ABS & REL Throttle Position values, definitely should check the knock sensor values. If your ABS / REL TP values are changing as well when hesitating, the problem may lie elsewhere.... pedal position sensor, VSS/TCS issue as you have a square wheel setup.

FWIW, there seems to be a few threads about early 2.0T's getting the same issue, especially in higher gears. Seems like the knock sensor is a diaphragm type that is particularly sensitive to certain frequencies.... things like chattery SMF clutches & hard engine mounts could resonate at certain frequencies causing the sensor to trip ... definitely something to log and check.

For the sake of getting a really clean, unintrusive log, run the test w/o TCS on and see what happens with the timing..... does it retard it as aggressively (or at all)?
I did have a vehicle that when knock was detected it would pull timing, reduce throttle and increase ST fuel. that was in a BMW...what is the chance that this would do similar?
without knowing every line of code by heart it would be near impossible to know what the ECU wants to do with a detected knock.
the only reason i knew about the stuff with the BMW was from a friend at COBB and a BMW master tech.

I will be checking the knock values this evening. and i will log it with both TCS on and TCS off. as well as AC on and off...if i can handle the temperautre that long LOL

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check your spark plugs and coil boots
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check your spark plugs and coil boots
I did. new boots, new NGK plugs when I did the tune.
Autolite Iridium plugs (10k miles) - pulled when I did the tune
NKG 2309 plugs - factory gap - studder present
Replaced with old Autolite plugs - no change
NKG 2309 plugs - .028 gap - little less stutter but still there

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***Current state***

So the stutter is nearly gone when TCS is off.
I have also noticed that when the tempeuature is a little cooler (yesterday was closer to 90 outside rather than 103) the ac does not complain quite as much, so the shake in the engine is not a pronounce. - this makes me lean more to the Knock sensor.
I could not log anthing last night...the scanner is in use on another vehicle at the moment.
HOWEVER, I did bump my hand on the intake while the engine was running and got a drop in timing and small hiccup.

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maybe check your MAF sensor - make sure it's pointing the right direction, check the connections. You could have an intake leak post-MAF sensor that could be causing unmetered air intake causing imperfect A/F ratio & fuel supply.

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maybe check your MAF sensor - make sure it's pointing the right direction, check the connections. You could have an intake leak post-MAF sensor that could be causing unmetered air intake causing imperfect A/F ratio & fuel supply.
...i did not think that the turbos were MAF..... (if im wrong please tell me. kinda making me question myself)

I can check the MAP sensor on the intercooler cold side pipe.
I know that the O-ring is the OEM one and it can never hurt to be replaced.

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TLDR; Just came here to say get a wideband.
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TLDR; Just came here to say get a wideband.
Have one....not showing anything out of the ordinary.
Innovate LC2 and gauge

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check the injectors?

take them out and tap a 9v across the terminals on the injectors and listen to how it clicks.

They all should sound similar.

are they stock injectors?
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check the injectors?

take them out and tap a 9v across the terminals on the injectors and listen to how it clicks.

They all should sound similar.

are they stock injectors?
They are stock injectors, and when i did the pulse check they were all showing the same values.. i can jump them with the 9volt and check them also.

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Having a similar issue with my custom tune, which I'm having looked at on Friday.

Using the Torque app to monitor things, when the hesitation occurs, timing drops down to -2 to -4 on the display for a brief moment. Seems to mostly happen between the 2-3 and 3-4 shifts.

Just installed new plugs, stock Densos, gapped to .036. Was going to try a different gap but I'm not really sure that it's worth it just yet.

Happens around under 10psi usually and always under ~50% throttle. No CEL ever comes on, yet I keep getting the P2191 code - System Too Lean at Higher Load which shows up when I search for codes on Torque.

'10 Silverstone 2.0T Track
-TurboXS GT cat back, racepipe & 02 Housing
-DW 550cc injectors
-Sonic Tuning SC7 in Pyrite Brown Metallic: 19x8.5 et20, 19x10 et22. 245f/275r
-BK2 Tails w/ Audi mod
-BK2 Valeo HD clutch setup
-Torque Solutions rigid collars
-Custom tune: 237whp @ ~18/19psi

Last edited by chadbrochills; 06-28-2016 at 08:14 AM.
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