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post #1 of 22 Old 09-01-2014 Thread Starter
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Can you hear knock?

Hi guys, appealing to your knowledge here it goes.

I got a tune and I want to make sure its safe before getting the most out of it. fuel in my country sucks (87 to 89 octane 8-10% ethanol)
I started by doing a knock test on torque app and it shows "probable detonations" at several RPM. I know this could just be timing retard but...
So I looked at AFR from torque (measured) and that's when I got scared. I got AFRs of 13 and even 14 at WOT but I have also read that torque is not that good at measuring AFR

So my question is can you hear knock on the 2.0T? (2013)

I ask because I also have a Renault Clio 1.6 and I can clearly hear knock when it happens (you can feel the vibrations a bit also) but I know its a bit difficult to hear knock on other cars like bmws or so
When I was doing pulls I did not hear or feel any knock

That been said can you guys share if you ever heard your 2.0T knocking?
Is it clear and easy to hear?
Is it lite or very difficult to identificate?

Any contributions would be very appreciated
Thanks
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post #2 of 22 Old 09-01-2014
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Yes you can... depending on how loud your exhaust is. It sounds something like this:



If your knock sensors are picking up knock... then you should probably stop doing what you are doing until you get it figured out.

You say you got a tune. Who did you get your tune through and what tune did you get? I don't know of any 2.0T tunes that don't require at least 91 octane. If you are running less than this then you are most certainly knocking. If you have your stock ECU, you need to install it and see if the knock goes away. If it does, your tune won't work for you unless you can get better gas.

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SFR stage 1.5 but it is supposed to be set to 89 octane

That do sounds like the knocks I have heard before but I could not heard any knock on my gen

I ran a knock test on knock detector app for torque app but the app says that a "probable detonation" is based on a timing retard not necessarily knock

Is there a more reliable way to know for sure if the engine is knocking?
Thanks for your reply
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If you can't hear it... hmm... you would have to rely on the torque logs; however....


13-14 AFR at WOT...
Unreliable fuel....
Timing being retarded by the ECU...

Torque cannot measure AFR on 10-12 Gens... that's because there is only a narrowband O2 sensor installed. '13+ Gens have a wideband O2 sensor... so what you see is what you get. Depending on how fast your OBDII scanner is... your sample rate may be too slow for real time; however, what it does pick up will be accurate.

If you have your stock ECU... put it in and drive around to see if you can repeat the codes on the stock tune....

If you can: It's a hardware problem. Given your questionable fuel situation, I would suspect the injectors. A clogged injector can cause you to run lean in just one cylinder and you may not be able to hear the knock because it is only occurring in one cylinder.

If you cannot: It's the tune and/or your gas. You are tuned for 89... how sure are you that you are getting 89? The stock ECU can compensate down to 87 octane. If you don't get any knock events on the stock tune... you may have just answered your own question.

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post #5 of 22 Old 09-02-2014 Thread Starter
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First of all thanks GenCoupeGeek for your posts

I did notice lag on the sampling rate, AFR would get slower after WOT ended. I will research and look if I can get a faster OBDII scan

The same knock test on stock ECU also detected “probable detonations” although less than with the tune. With stock ECU happened at 4000 and 5000 RPM and on the tune at 2700, 4000, 5000 and 6000rpm.

I will do more testing on the stock ECU just to have more reliable data…
AFR was not that accurate with stock ECU either, I will do more testing but that got me thinking
I don’t even know the actual lambda of my fuel given that it’s a mixture on gasoline and ethanol (it is supposed to be between 8 to 10% ethanol)
That should mess the AFR readings right?

Just and other thing, searching I found a similar thread where someone mention a “knock sensor” that detected knock by vibrations on the engine however I don’t find the option on Torque App to see this sensor.

Is there a way to actually tap that sensor and know for sure that a knock happened?
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post #6 of 22 Old 09-02-2014
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sub'd for this, I think that I might be having the same problem. if anyone wants to check my post and give insight on that, it would be helpful. But im certain I may be having the same problem
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post #7 of 22 Old 09-02-2014
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https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...kills.kd&hl=en

8-10% won't have an effect on anything other than driving up taxes and the cost of gas.

When you say, "AFR was not that accurate", how do you know this if the only thing you have to measure AFR is Torque and the silly steam gauge that Hyundai gives you that they found in a crackerjack box?

If you think that AFR may not be accurate, try cleaning the primary O2 sensor.


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Last edited by GenCoupeGeek; 09-02-2014 at 09:28 AM.
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post #8 of 22 Old 09-02-2014
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sub'd. Im using "Knock dector" too and its telling me the same thing.
Funny thing is, Ive been running my BTR tune for 2 years now and if it were knock my engine would be long gone! lol

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthetic-Coupe View Post
sub'd. Im using "Knock dector" too and its telling me the same thing.
Funny thing is, Ive been running my BTR tune for 2 years now and if it were knock my engine would be long gone! lol
Exactly, just because knock detector says “possible detonations” does not mean that knock is happening

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Originally Posted by kdm_cannon View Post
sub'd for this, I think that I might be having the same problem. if anyone wants to check my post and give insight on that, it would be helpful. But im certain I may be having the same problem
I don’t know if I have a problem yet, I just want to make sure I don’t before going crazy with the tune
where is your post?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenCoupeGeek View Post
https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...kills.kd&hl=en

8-10% won't have an effect on anything other than driving up taxes and the cost of gas.

When you say, "AFR was not that accurate", how do you know this if the only thing you have to measure AFR is Torque and the silly steam gauge that Hyundai gives you that they found in a crackerjack box?

If you think that AFR may not be accurate, try cleaning the primary O2 sensor.
Thanks for the video, that’s something I will definitely do

I said that AFR was not really accurate even with stock tune because I got different readings on similar pulls. Sometimes giving a lean reading too

8-10% won’t have any effects? Does ethanol lambda is the same as gasoline? Are they booths 14.7? That does not sound right to me
I have read that some AFR Wideband gauges calculate the lambda in cases of fuel mixtures and represent it as 14.7 even if it’s not but I don’t know if torque app does that

From the Knock Detector App webpage: “Knock Detector uses heuristic algorithm to find detonations. It is based on analysis of timing advance, throttle, revs and speed. On some ECUs it may report knocks but the reason could be timing retard

Knock detector analyses timing advance but it apparently does not connect to the knock sensor I have read about

That knock sensor does exist right?
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post #11 of 22 Old 09-02-2014
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Stoichiometric for E10 is something like 14.1. The difference is certainly not enough to cause knock as our tunes will generally run well under 11.7 at WOT (typically you see 11 and under). If you are running at exactly 11.7 on E10... then maybe that might be a little cause for concern; however, if you start knocking the ECU will pull timing.

There is actually such a thing as a knock sensor on a Genesis Coupe. https://www.gencoupe.com/2-0t-discuss...ck-sensor.html.... so if Torque is reporting knock and timing being retarded... there's probably knock.

Stick your stock ECU in and monitor. If it goes away... it may be a tune issue (the stock ECU can compensate for lower octane, so you cannot rule out a fuel problem). If it doesn't.. then it is most definitely a hardware issue.

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post #12 of 22 Old 09-02-2014
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I was hoping for the website to describe what conditions they anticipate having knock but I guess not. Anyone have experience in peeking at app code? I was going characterize this myself but rather not use my own engine as a guinea pig.

Since work is practically over I will comment on the actual question of the thread, the knock frequency for our car is within the frequency range that is audible for a human. The difficulty that exists is hearing and isolating it above every other vibration and flowing material but that's where signal processing comes in, essentially eliminating these other frequencies and multiplying the frequency of interest by a factor or function. To complicate things further the knock frequency and amplitude will change depending on the state of your car. Fun stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidcc01 View Post
Thanks for the video, that’s something I will definitely do

I said that AFR was not really accurate even with stock tune because I got different readings on similar pulls. Sometimes giving a lean reading too

8-10% won’t have any effects? Does ethanol lambda is the same as gasoline? Are they booths 14.7? That does not sound right to me
I have read that some AFR Wideband gauges calculate the lambda in cases of fuel mixtures and represent it as 14.7 even if it’s not but I don’t know if torque app does that

From the Knock Detector App webpage: “Knock Detector uses heuristic algorithm to find detonations. It is based on analysis of timing advance, throttle, revs and speed. On some ECUs it may report knocks but the reason could be timing retard

Knock detector analyses timing advance but it apparently does not connect to the knock sensor I have read about

That knock sensor does exist right?

Last edited by nyangineer; 09-02-2014 at 02:56 PM.
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post #13 of 22 Old 09-02-2014
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afr with torque is spot on for me and refresh rate is not that bad i have between 45 an d 65 pid per second

get the hyundai advance package it have some pid for knock

for afr adding fuel ethanol and stuff doen't change afr ON THE METER

since it read lambda value varie between 0-1

1 being perfect combustion....

so if you have a wide band for gazoline....and it sense perfect combustion il will show 1*14.7 since 14.7 is the known perfect afr

but if your gaz mix as a perfect afr a 12....the afr gage will show 14.7 afr when in reality your burning 12

innovate afr gage have the option to change the multiplier to fit different type of fuel


i got this from an other site


Hi Kurt,

I will try to clarify. First of all, lambda 1.00 is stoichiometric, regardless which fuel you use. 14.7:1 for pump gas, 13.4:1 for VP 109, 9.8:1 for E85. That part is pretty straight forward and I think most people get it. AFR is more difficult though.

Since pump gas is the most common fuel, most wideband meters are calibrated for the stoichiometric ratio for this (14.7:1). The important part to understand is that the wideband meter doesn’t know (or care) what fuel it is reading. All it is looking at is the oxygen content in the exhaust. The wideband meter basically works natively in lambda and in order to display AFR, it must be told what air fuel ratio equates to lambda 1.00 so it can display the right number.

So lets assume that the wideband meter is set for a stoichiometric AFR of 14.7:1. This means when it is reading lambda 1.00 (regardless of fuel), it will display 14.7:1. Run it at lambda 1.00 on VP 109 and it will read 14.7:1. Run it at lambda 1.00 on E85 and it will read 14.7:1. Run it at lambda 1.00 on methanol and it will read…. you guessed it, 14.7:1.

Right, now lets assume we are running at 0.85 lambda. Our wideband is still configured with a stoichiometric AFR of 14.7:1. 0.85 x 14.7 is 12.495:1. This means that regardless of the fuel type, the wideband will read 12.495 if we are running 0.85 lambda.

If however we adjust the stoichiometric setting in the wideband for the fuel we are running, everything changes. Lets say we change to VP 109 and we set the wideband to a stoich ratio of 13.4:1. Now when the lambda is 1.00, the wideband will read 13.4:1. If we run 0.85, the wideband will read 0.85 x 13.4 = 11.39:1.

Most tuners can’t be bothered changing the stoich setting on their wideband so they leave it set to 14.7:1. That isn’t ideal, but provided you understand the implications, it is workable. For instance if you tune on VP 109 but leave the stoich setting at 14.7:1 then at an actual AFR of 13.4:1, the wideband would read 14.7:1 (lambda 1.00). At an actual AFR of 11.5:1, the wideband would read 12.6:1 (11.5/13.4 = 0.858, 0.858 x 14.7 = 12.6).

I know it can be confusing, but it is essential to get your head around to avoid potentially costly mistakes. Again, this is why I am a big advocate for tuning in lambda, not AFR since then the stoichiomteric ratio of a particular fuel just doesn’t matter.
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post #14 of 22 Old 09-02-2014
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^^this is probably the best explanation of Lambda vs AFR that I've read.

The important thing to remember is that Lambda is a measure of the exhaust stream and not the actual fuel going into the cylinder. A Lambda of 1.0 for E10 would be about 14.2 AFR; however, your gauge would still read 14.7 because the conversion from Lambda to AFR assumes stoichiometric AFR is 14.7.

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Thanks a lot GenCoupeGeek and genspec13 that is some great info
Well besides learning a lot of AFR I noticed from the link that knock on our engines is definitely hearable so at least I know that I am not going to destroy my engine without hearing it knock

I also realized that my OBDII adapter is really slow. I am far from 45 pid per second so I will look for a better adapter maybe that way I'll get more reliable data

I will look into the Hyundai advanced package to see if I can get info from the knock sensor because knock detector app does not connect to it

I will do more tests and keep you posted
Thanks all for your contributions
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post #16 of 22 Old 11-09-2015
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Sorry to resurrect an old thread but yesterday I had something odd happen.

I filled up at a Wawa which is not top tier fuel, but it is 92 so figured it was ok (no tune). I have Torque but I don't trust the knock detector plug in because every time I have used it it said possible knock. If there was a knock every time I used that plugin I would have popcorned my valve train by now.

But yesterday I was on it pulling away from traffic on the highway not quite WOT but pulling. Then Torque sounded an alarm I had never heard. It was something like Knock Detected at 101°, 100° threshold (I was driving and this was all I caught). This I had never seen before. What could that mean? Could the wawa gas be a problem? Normally I use Shell or Texaco.
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Oh, I heard and felt nothing. My passenger said the same he thought the car was totally normal and he didn't hear a knock either.
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post #18 of 22 Old 11-09-2015
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Many engines will run fine with barely audible or not audible knock.

FWIW my Innovate WBO2 can be set to E10. And mine shows 14.1-14.3 when in closed loop on E10.

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I suspect the gas, so I put some STP octane booster in the tank and topped off with Citgo 93 (what I normally use where I normally get it from).

When it said 101°, does that refer to the angle of the crank? 101 would suggest some detonation wouldn't it? Torque's alarm threshold is set at 100° by default. The highest spark advance I saw driving around today was around 46° (Torque). I installed an O2 housing from ISIS last week, but I have been using Torque all week and this is the only time I have ever seen this error come up.

Thanks @Red Raspberry , you always have good feedback for threads!
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I don't really know what it means. Did you look for any help or tips in Torque? There is also update speed selection in the Advanced EX.

92 octane should be OK especially if it's E10 for no knock.

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