Autocross setups - Page 5 - Hyundai Genesis Forum
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post #81 of 206 Old 02-19-2015
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You do a great job at muddling different discussion points in this thread. I know a few people that like to argue that way, because to them it's not about learning or gaining wisdom or understanding...or even helping others...it's ALL about being right. Which is what your problem is.

So, again, I know my tires are excessively worn on the outer shoulders. My original question was about what else could cause understeer besides worn tires. If there is nothing, then great...I have that to look forward to when I get new tires. Clear enough?

I don't even know where to begin with addressing your comment about most cars not being designed to understeer. How about you try this: Go find an empty parking lot and drive in a circle. Go faster and faster and at SOME POINT your car will lose grip. Right? What you're telling us all is that YOUR car (because you know it so well) will never lose grip in a lateral G situation. You are wrong. Further to that, when it DOES finally lose grip it will be at the front tires (assuming you didn't punch the gas to slide the back end out). That, my friend, is understeer. Almost every car does it by design. It's inherently stable for cars to understeer...and unstable to oversteer. You really need more education if you don't understand that.

Since you fancy Top Gear so much, how many episodes have you watched where they do the star in the reasonably priced car, or other track tests where they don't observe and verbally say the word understeer? Here's a link for you from Car and Driver about the best performance cars, and it talks about understeer.

The point I'm making about all of this is that, whether you want to admit it or not, your car CAN understeer. The cause of understeer isn't the question (driver ability, worn tires, etc)...the question is why you believe your car is somehow immune to it. Then again, if you never meet the lateral G limits for YOUR car, you won't slide...and in that case you're probably not driving very close to it's performance "edge".

So, again, post up a link to your local SCCA club...I'd like to compare your times to other drivers and their cars.
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2013 3.8 Track, A/T
Magnaflow CBE dual exhaust
Drop in K&N airfilter
Stance Super Sport Coilovers
Enkei RPF1 18x9.5 wheels (Autocross only)
SFR tune
20% tint

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post #82 of 206 Old 02-19-2015
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Last thing...and I'm done talking to you. Here's a list of links from (reputable?) professional driving and car magazines reviewing the Genesis Coupe. Go ahead and read them. All. And do look for the parts where they talk about how much understeer the car has. I'm sure all of their tires are in good shape, in case you're wondering. AMF

www.motortrend.com

www.cargurus.com

autos.jdpower.com

www.automobilemag.com

www.topspeed.com

2013 3.8 Track, A/T
Magnaflow CBE dual exhaust
Drop in K&N airfilter
Stance Super Sport Coilovers
Enkei RPF1 18x9.5 wheels (Autocross only)
SFR tune
20% tint
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post #83 of 206 Old 02-19-2015
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Great troll. Obviously, you're reaching for everything but the kitchen sink to stoop to so many insults after claiming I was uncivil, but the fact is, your tires are worn out. What kind of brainiac can judge any car's handling on bald tires, then get online to claim that such skewed opinion applies to every other Coupe ever made? No matter how many Google hits you dig up using the term "understeer", your double fallacy is to presume that your false opinion applies to every Coupe. My advice, since you're done talking, is to read the thread I linked on sway bars, and then go get yourself some fresh tires.

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post #84 of 206 Old 02-19-2015
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Hey this threads getting off topic. Let's keep talking about autocross. Experiences, mods and how they affect the car, driver input and his they affect the car. Ft86 forum has an entire sub thread dedicated to this autocross, where GC Forums just has ..one thread..this one right here.

Let's keep it civil, and stop the arguing.
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2013 2.0T Platinum Silver M/T Base
Custom Tuned by SFR: 325 WTQ 292 WHP

Injen SRI
TurboXS-SML Hybrid BOV
PnP IM
TB Fluid & BOV By Pass
Autoshin 3" O2 Housing
ISIS 3" DP/TP
ISIS Street Cat-Back Exhaust
BLOX Type-R Shift Knob
Redline Transmission Oil (MT-85 75W85 GL4)
Quaife ATB Helical LSD
BC Racing Coilovers 12K Front 9K Rear
Whiteline 30 mm Front Sway Bar
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post #85 of 206 Old 02-22-2015
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Arguing (rational discussion) is truly a lost art in America. Most people make it personal.

I think the theme of this thread, as much as anything else, is all about driver expectations. For a simple analogy, if you're a musician and hit a "wrong" note then look at the instrument, as a driver you may not ever be satisfied with any particular car, not even a million-dollar hypercar, and so you may tend to blame the car or even hate on the car when it's you who played the note. If however, you use that odd note to change the riff, or think about how you play the instrument, as a driver you might be in the right frame of mind to race competitively. So, more particularly, the singer who blames the microphone and then gets online to whine about it is helping no one, least of all themselves.

In that light, nearly all the negative comments I've ever read about the Coupe's handling are either coming from a combination of a Base model being pushed too hard, a modded car probably set up wrong, tires past their useful life, or a driver who expects their car to drive them around the course. Arguing about that in the face of such endless hater commentary on this supposedly enthusiast's site is absolutely necessary, in my view. In this way, the Genesis Coupe really needs only one mod - a skilled and fearless driver who expects their driving to be the focus, not one sway bar vs another.

Take the seemingly default AutoX car, the plucky Miata. This is a car that has a single attribute making it competitive, its miniscule toy car size. A car that small is going to get around the slalom cones faster with less effort, but as the Miatas wallow and drift all over the track, you can watch as, even in "prepared" form, they have a ceiling. Compared to a Miata, the Genesis Coupe, even in Base stock form, has the handling, power, balance, and finesse to counteract the fact that the Coupe is twice the size and 50% heavier. An Infinity G37 Coupe or a Genesis Coupe, similar platforms, are totally superior cars, and they can go well above the Miata's (ES/CSP) ceiling, but it takes a very fast driver to do it in the larger car.

My point should be clear, then. Hating on this car is not helping anyone, least of all the haters. Talking about driving will help us all. That's what I'm working on this season, letting go further to get to the next level of my own performance. I don't need a single mod to the car (being an R-Spec), but to my thinking and practice. In short, it's not about the car.

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post #86 of 206 Old 02-22-2015
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Well said. A few genesis coupe, in stock class, (probably r spec) placed in the top 10s in the finals last year. Cars got potential for modded clasess too. Just need the turboback exhaust, bov and tune to get that power per lb of car equailized. Stiff front sway bar and square autox tires. Alignment is pretty obvious with lots of negative camber up front a little in back

The final mod is the suspension (namely coilovers)...I don't think anyone's got that dialed in yet for autoX in this car. Then of course, the driver. You drive this car way different than a Miata.

Most "best practices" in autoX assume you're in a Miata or similar type platform. The best lines and apexes, track in and track out, throttle steering, trail breaking, slaloms and such are so different for the gen coupe.

I had a multi time national driver drive my car and he was left foot breaking and maximizing the cars potential. He said this car has definitely got potential with the correct driver.

Genesis coupe, specifically the turbo, with low end peak torque is so damn fun to autox. I love driving my FRS but I miss my genesis coupe. I'll probably buy a genesis coupe again in the near future and autoX both cars.

The power coming out of turns leading into long straights with the genesis coupe is so addicting, I love the sound of the turbo spooling and being pressed back in my seat, feeling the G's.

Wrapping around turns with my FRS, even with those prius tires and stock alignment, is immaculate, and I love it's handling characteristics, but in the straights when I'm WOT I yell "where's the power !!! "
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2013 2.0T Platinum Silver M/T Base
Custom Tuned by SFR: 325 WTQ 292 WHP

Injen SRI
TurboXS-SML Hybrid BOV
PnP IM
TB Fluid & BOV By Pass
Autoshin 3" O2 Housing
ISIS 3" DP/TP
ISIS Street Cat-Back Exhaust
BLOX Type-R Shift Knob
Redline Transmission Oil (MT-85 75W85 GL4)
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BC Racing Coilovers 12K Front 9K Rear
Whiteline 30 mm Front Sway Bar
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post #87 of 206 Old 02-22-2015
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I have a Rspec and the car handle very good when I did a Track day. I'm thinking about doing Autox but don't really feel like buying tires ever event. I currently have two sets of stock 19. I was thinking about doing a square setup (tires meaning I'll get 245 for the front and back. Rear rim is 8.5 and front rim is 8) but not sure. I'm split between RS 3 and PSS, but if autox is that hard I may think of getting cheaper tires and just works with that at first.
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post #88 of 206 Old 02-22-2015
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Don't autocross is PSS. I've ruined those tires in one event. Go to tirerack.com and search for "autocross tires" and you'll see a good selection meant for the sport.

2013 2.0T Platinum Silver M/T Base
Custom Tuned by SFR: 325 WTQ 292 WHP

Injen SRI
TurboXS-SML Hybrid BOV
PnP IM
TB Fluid & BOV By Pass
Autoshin 3" O2 Housing
ISIS 3" DP/TP
ISIS Street Cat-Back Exhaust
BLOX Type-R Shift Knob
Redline Transmission Oil (MT-85 75W85 GL4)
Quaife ATB Helical LSD
BC Racing Coilovers 12K Front 9K Rear
Whiteline 30 mm Front Sway Bar
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post #89 of 206 Old 02-22-2015
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Ok using stock rims what size tires should I use. I guess will go for Ventus R-S3
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post #90 of 206 Old 02-22-2015
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Yeah. Those or the star spec ziis

2013 2.0T Platinum Silver M/T Base
Custom Tuned by SFR: 325 WTQ 292 WHP

Injen SRI
TurboXS-SML Hybrid BOV
PnP IM
TB Fluid & BOV By Pass
Autoshin 3" O2 Housing
ISIS 3" DP/TP
ISIS Street Cat-Back Exhaust
BLOX Type-R Shift Knob
Redline Transmission Oil (MT-85 75W85 GL4)
Quaife ATB Helical LSD
BC Racing Coilovers 12K Front 9K Rear
Whiteline 30 mm Front Sway Bar
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post #91 of 206 Old 02-23-2015
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This is why I stopped posting here last year. I try to help and no one gives a damn about real advice. Performance settings for autocross are greatly different than what you want on the street and even from what you want on the track.

And no, I don't believe that your cars are junk. BECAUSE THEY AREN'T STOCK. In stock form, with stock settings, the car is not competitive and understeers like a pig. If you are not experiencing this, you either need to fix the driver, or your car has already been modified from OEM specs. Even the R-Spec, which I'll admit, is faster than the base models, will still understeer if you haven't added the camber bolts and done an aggressive alignment.

That said, don't be afraid to come out and try it yourself. Even in stock form, the car is fun and you will learn a great deal about the car and how to drive. Any competitive driver will tell you that the single greatest upgrade you can do is the driver. Once you've maxed out the potential of the car and are running consistent times, then worry about modifying the car.

Oh and if you think I'm a troll, better get your facts straight. I'm one of only three people who have run their Gencoupes at SCCA Nationals in the last three years. I'm a former rookie of the year in the Kansas City Region, I've either won or been second in my class every year I've been in KC, was the Midwest Division Champion, just missed trophies the last two years at Nationals, and last year was in the running for KC driver of the year all while in the Gencoupe. Feel free to verify that here:
Solo Results Archive - Kansas City Region SCCA

Oh and just to add a little flair, check out the latest issue of Sportscar Magazine. I'm No. 82.

-Jeff Bartz
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post #92 of 206 Old 02-23-2015
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Originally Posted by CrazyCalm View Post
This is why I stopped posting here last year. I try to help and no one gives a damn about real advice. Performance settings for autocross are greatly different than what you want on the street and even from what you want on the track.

And no, I don't believe that your cars are junk. BECAUSE THEY AREN'T STOCK. In stock form, with stock settings, the car is not competitive and understeers like a pig. If you are not experiencing this, you either need to fix the driver, or your car has already been modified from OEM specs. Even the R-Spec, which I'll admit, is faster than the base models, will still understeer if you haven't added the camber bolts and done an aggressive alignment.

That said, don't be afraid to come out and try it yourself. Even in stock form, the car is fun and you will learn a great deal about the car and how to drive. Any competitive driver will tell you that the single greatest upgrade you can do is the driver. Once you've maxed out the potential of the car and are running consistent times, then worry about modifying the car.

Oh and if you think I'm a troll, better get your facts straight. I'm one of only three people who have run their Gencoupes at SCCA Nationals in the last three years. I'm a former rookie of the year in the Kansas City Region, I've either won or been second in my class every year I've been in KC, was the Midwest Division Champion, just missed trophies the last two years at Nationals, and last year was in the running for KC driver of the year all while in the Gencoupe. Feel free to verify that here:
Solo Results Archive - Kansas City Region SCCA

Oh and just to add a little flair, check out the latest issue of Sportscar Magazine. I'm No. 82.

-Jeff Bartz
I listen, and I appreciate your comments, Jeff. Same here...I'm no longer going to reply to people that truly have no clue. I'm not bashing anyone, but I feel like some guys think they know everything, when they just don't know what they don't know. The funny thing is, they believe they do, which is so incredibly frustrating when you're trying to share good information.

Also, I really appreciate that you're willing to post up a link with your local SCCA and show what you can do. Mine is the Boise, Idaho area...srscca.com. I raced bone stock in the F-street class. This year, I'll have the mods that keep in F-street.
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2013 3.8 Track, A/T
Magnaflow CBE dual exhaust
Drop in K&N airfilter
Stance Super Sport Coilovers
Enkei RPF1 18x9.5 wheels (Autocross only)
SFR tune
20% tint
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post #93 of 206 Old 02-23-2015
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Sweet stuff crazy calm. Are you still actively autoXing the gc?

which class / mods ?

2013 2.0T Platinum Silver M/T Base
Custom Tuned by SFR: 325 WTQ 292 WHP

Injen SRI
TurboXS-SML Hybrid BOV
PnP IM
TB Fluid & BOV By Pass
Autoshin 3" O2 Housing
ISIS 3" DP/TP
ISIS Street Cat-Back Exhaust
BLOX Type-R Shift Knob
Redline Transmission Oil (MT-85 75W85 GL4)
Quaife ATB Helical LSD
BC Racing Coilovers 12K Front 9K Rear
Whiteline 30 mm Front Sway Bar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanceswithTurbo View Post
Sweet stuff crazy calm. Are you still actively autoXing the gc?

which class / mods ?
Yep. I'm making the jump from GS to STU this year. I updated my current mods in my sig but have many more planned for this year.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanceswithTurbo View Post
...Then of course, the driver. You drive this car way different than a Miata...Most "best practices" in autoX assume you're in a Miata or similar type platform. The best lines and apexes, track in and track out, throttle steering, trail breaking, slaloms and such are so different for the gen coupe...I had a multi time national driver drive my car and he was left foot breaking and maximizing the cars potential. He said this car has definitely got potential with the correct driver.
Exactly. Not only do you drive it differently, the Coupe has more in reserve than most drivers realize, given this and other threads. An R-Spec especially can easily cover a given course at class-busting times, even PAX-busting times, but its driver might not be there yet I've had similar experiences with racers driving mine faster than I drive it myself, and it's one reason among many that I discount entirely negative comments above about the Coupe. Assuming your tires and brakes are fresh, and the Coupe is in good mechanical order, it is the driver's expectation and skill that have to be worked on. That's what AutoX is all about

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So first year with the genny. unfortunately both races have been wet so I have yet to meet the Under steer issue I'm sure to find. But coming From an sti I can say this is a lot more fun to drive both in and off the track. I'm running all stock rspec in FS front at 40psi and rear at 35psi. I will keep you posted as I learn the car and look for Input.

Austin spokes scca club FS69
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post #97 of 206 Old 03-05-2015
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Originally Posted by Gencoupe14 View Post
So first year with the genny. unfortunately both races have been wet so I have yet to meet the Under steer issue I'm sure to find. But coming From an sti I can say this is a lot more fun to drive both in and off the track. I'm running all stock rspec in FS front at 40psi and rear at 35psi. I will keep you posted as I learn the car and look for Input.

Austin spokes scca club FS69
Nice! I'm jealous...our first event is in 3 weeks! I think I've got my car dialed in for F Street class. Last year my first 2 events were in the rain, and that wasn't fun...hopefully it'll be dry this year.

Keep us posted how you do when it's dry!

2013 3.8 Track, A/T
Magnaflow CBE dual exhaust
Drop in K&N airfilter
Stance Super Sport Coilovers
Enkei RPF1 18x9.5 wheels (Autocross only)
SFR tune
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I've got a 2015 base V6, and just finished up my second autocross event. While my first outing was a blast, but it felt as if my gen coupe was riding on butter. I was experiencing both oversteer, and understeer, but the understeer was horrible. Decided the initial weak link was the tires, and after some research ended up with 255/40-18 Pirelli P-Zero's on 18x9.5's front and rear. The fronts required a 32mm spacer, and I went ahead and threw on 25mm's on the rear to even it out. Night and day difference in handling with this tire setup. Understeer is almost completely gone (as long a you don't carry way too much speed into a corner), and oversteer is much more controllable. I was shocked at how poorly my base gen coupe did at the track because it felt so grippy on the street, but this change in tires made a world of difference. I'm considering a larger front sway bar, but as far as I'm concernced, I'm happy with how the car now runs on the track. Just need more seat time to work on getting quicker. I've been running with the BMW CCA group events held at the police academy on the north side of Houston, TX. Also, my wheel/tire setup is for track days only. Run the stockers for daily driving.
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post #99 of 206 Old 03-11-2015
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Did you dial in any negative camber? It most definitely will understeer without some camber...in my case, most of the understeer went away when I added the camber bolts (to about -2.0 degrees per side).

My tires (Bridgestone Potenza's) did OK starting out last season...they still pushed a bit even with -2.0 of camber, but the more they wore down, the worse it got. And it didn't take long for them to wear out.

2013 3.8 Track, A/T
Magnaflow CBE dual exhaust
Drop in K&N airfilter
Stance Super Sport Coilovers
Enkei RPF1 18x9.5 wheels (Autocross only)
SFR tune
20% tint
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I did have my first alignment done before my last track day. It was all over the place from the factory to put it kindly. My front end has limited adjustability so they were only able to put -1 in the front. My rear end is adjustable, so i had them set it to -1.5.
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