Cost of checking valve clearance @ 60k miles? - Page 2 - Hyundai Genesis Forum
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post #21 of 52 Old 09-03-2015
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Thanks Red. I stand corrected and that's good. Good input from the others too. It looks like... you might be able to unbolt the cams from the gear/timing assembly and pull them back out. I think if I have the engine that long I won't mind a rebuild. Until then I am not going to worry about this.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmunn View Post
Doesn't the factory service manual mention that the check at 60,000 miles is simply listening for valve train noise and / or vibration? and if noted then proceed with adjustment if needed?

in other words, they are listening for it.

On most vehicles with mechanical lifter buckets that are available in various sizes for valve adjustment, it is primarily wear that leads to the need to perform adjustments, which leads me to believe if you are very good with your oil changes and use quality oil this will not be something that is needed until well past 100,000 miles.

There are several site members with well over 100k miles on their 3.8 without any valve adjustments performed. Their cars are still running just fine.

Just to clear up any misconceptions people have in comparing this engine to previous vehicles, here is a picture of what our lifters look like pulled from a Hyundai animation of the 3.8 GDi engine, known as Lambda.

The lifter bucket IS the adjustment shim, this bucket rides directly on the camshaft, and drives the valve and spring up and down directly from the cam lobe. These surfaces are liberally lubricated from the oil being pumped and sprayed throughout the valve cover area as well as passages in the camshafts. There is no adjusting these without removing the camshafts which is why the cost is much higher than regular shim and bucket or lock nut configurations. That being said, they don't get out of adjustment other than by wear, and looking at the design I highly doubt they would get tighter at all, only looser through wear.

All this being said, I am not an automotive engineer, but this is my take on it through logic and reason. I am not worried about my valve lash at all, considering I run full synthetic oil according to the factory service interval of 7,500 miles without exception and have done so since vehicle was brand new.
The bucket is not the shim, there is a shim that sits between the bucket and the valve stem and that is what you change to adjust the valve, this is called a shim under bucket system. There is also a system called shim over bucket system not used much because of problems with shims slipping out of place at high RPM's but I believe you don't have to remove the cams just depress the valve a little to change shims, the other common system is of course screw adjuster in the rocker arms. Most heads now are aluminum with steel valve seats, what happens is the valve with a heavy spring slams shut and after a time the steel seats tend to be pressed deeper into the soft aluminum head. They don't get pressed in very much but you don't have a lot of clearance to begin with specially on the intake valve, when this happens the clearance tightens up and could eventually become critical. I don't think you have a lot of wear in the valve train system we have either but in my opinion the problem is the valve seats being pounded deeper in to the soft head and decreasing valve clearance.
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post #23 of 52 Old 09-03-2015
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I think my '08 Accent has the same setup with the buckets. Would not surprise me to see the same part numbers for them too.

It looks to be pretty involved to measure the buckets so hopefully when you check the clearance they are all in spec.

Spec for the 2L and 3.8L are Cold 20C, Intake 0.17-0.23 mm, Exhaust 027.-0.33 mm.

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It was good to find out about the buckets. I am old school and have and still only deal with rockers. Aside from that I am not to worried about needing an adjustment considering I only run pure Syn and at every 5k. Plus I already calculated it would take me 7 years of routine driving to reach 60k, and my car will be traded before then.

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WMUNN, I stand corrected, you are right about the bucket being the adjustment part of a GC valve system. I have never seen that before but like I said my experience has been mostly with motorcycle engines. It sure would be cheaper to replace shims instead of a bucket if you needed adjustment.
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Just to jump in with info to back up @Red Raspberry

Each valve can and likely from the factory has a different size bucket, during normal wear the inside of the bucket can get worn down and new buckets need to be put in to make up for the clearance difference, or the opposite from the valve seat and margin getting worn, which you would do the opposite of my instruction below

NOTE the 2.0 does not come with shims the only adjustment you have is cutting new valves or buying different size buckets

tools needed
rachet
breaker bar or torque wrench
10mm socket
12mm socket
14mm socket (only if the head is not attached/on engine, as you'll turn the cam over by the main crank not the cam bolt)
22mm socket (for the damper bolt on the 2.0)



valve clearances
2.0 allowed lash is 0.10~0.30mm on intake and 0.20~0.40mm on exhaust and the green zone/spec is 0.17-0.23mm intake, 027.-0.33mm exhaust
3.8 i have no idea but if you have the shop manual it will tell you

The procedure for checking this clearance begins by exposing the cams/buckets and then using a feeler gauge normally around $10 at ace


checking each valve while turning over the cam/engine so the valve is in the fully up position, i should mention you can turn over your engine without fear of damage as long as the transmission is in neutral and the battery is disconnected and the e-brake is on

Then by attaching a large socket to the main damper bolt(not sure of size for 3.8 but 2.0 is 22mm) with a long handled ratchet/breaker bar then slowly turn the engine over until each cam is in the collapsed state(valve up) then you slide the gauge using a 0.30 on the intake and 0.40 on the exhaust between the top of the bucket and cam until you reach one that the gauge will slide in between the cam and bucket, this means the valve lash for this valve is at the max allowed 0.30 intake and 0.40 exhaust.

ideally you would want to check total clearance which requires a bit more work per each valve as you would need to find the largest gauge you can fit between the cam and bucket for each valve and write that down so at some point later in time you can use that as a reference point to the next time you check the clearances.

If you find one that has a clearance greater than the allowed lash then you need to figured out what size bucket you need to buy, do this by taking the max gauge size for that valve and add that to the size stamped on the inside of the bucket then minus the minimum lash 0.10 on intake and 0.20 on exhaust and that will give you the size bucket you need, now if that size is say 3.440 then you would need to get the next size smaller(3.43) as not to exceed the minimum and maximum recommend lash clearances but be as low as possible but within range, next purchase the correct buckets and make sure you write down which buckets you will be replacing with what size new bucket when the parts arrive so when you take the cams off you know which ones you are working on so you don't have to do all the measurements again.

once the parts arrive the process is the same to expose the cams however you will also need to drain your oil and remove the front cover and everything along with it so belts, pulleys likely some coolant stuff and you will have to redo the timing chain(pretty simple as everything is marked with dots), but it's a pretty intense amount of work which is why some dealers will charge you $2500-4k to replace and cheapest i've seen them do the "check" is around $500-1000 as i believe the book calls for 4 hours on 2.0 and 8 hours on 3.8

Photos with explanations

This bucket needs to be replaced NOTE: (it doesn't really need to be replaced on this head as this head was already fully built and checked, i just used a smaller gauge to show you in a photo what a bucket that needs to be replaced looks like when the gauge slides all the way between the cam and bucket)


this one is fine, however it could be getting close so make sure you check it with a gauge smaller than the maximum as if it's within say .05(0.25) then i would go ahead and replace this bucket as well.


pull the 10 bolts (BTW the cam tower bolts are single use bolts as they stretch so i highly recommend you get ARP part#128-1001, otherwise you will likely shear a head off when torquing the bolts back down to factory specs)


now the buckets are exposed



pull the bucket that needs to be replaced (it slides right off the valve/retainer cap), you may have to use a pair of channellocks as these little guys get slipper from the oil in the head, but be very careful not to score or bend the bucket if it's to be reused and you just felt like taking some of the others off. If you do this be sure to keep track of which bucket goes to which valve as it MUST be replaced back on that specific valve!!!!


The bucket size is on the inside of the bucket this one is 3.240 and say we added 0.30 = 3.540 - 0.10 = 3.44 the size closest to our needed size is 3.43 which will give us a lash of 0.11


complete shop book specs and instructions(except it doesn't say how to check the lash on the cam/bucket)
http://www.williamworley.com/genesis...20Assembly.pdf

I hope this helps someone who may not understand all the clearances and measurements, and sorry if i goofed any numbers as always refer to the shop manual as the exact specs are always there and with minimal tools and measuring devices you can figure out how to do almost anything on your engine given the right understanding.

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Last edited by BadBoyBill; 09-03-2015 at 02:38 PM.
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Nice job Badboy Bill, much appreciated.
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As Kyle from South Park would say, "I learned something today."

Thanks BadBoyBill.

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Now we have some good information on this

I would also feel confident betting that 95% of these cars will never see an actual valve adjustment during their service lifetime, needed or not. This will in turn lead to a lot of engine failures between 100k and 200k miles.

This will lead to the car being in the junkyard, or rebuilt heads, depending on how badly the owner wants to return the car to service with high miles on it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmunn View Post
Now we have some good information on this

I would also feel confident betting that 95% of these cars will never see an actual valve adjustment during their service lifetime, needed or not. This will in turn lead to a lot of engine failures between 100k and 200k miles.

This will lead to the car being in the junkyard, or rebuilt heads, depending on how badly the owner wants to return the car to service with high miles on it.
True, but it depends on the life the engine led. As I said earlier, my Stealth had over 170k miles on the clock and I used to see it while commuting to and from work once in a while after I traded it so it was a local sale. I am sure that car hit over 200k. To your point if you get to the point of replacing the timing chain then this is not a lot of additional work since you are there already. Not going to worry about it.

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If doing this int he car Hyundai has a special bolt to lock the timing chain in place. Then you take the chains off the cams.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Raspberry View Post
If doing this int he car Hyundai has a special bolt to lock the timing chain in place. Then you take the chains off the cams.
You have any more info on that, as i know on the 2.0 this is not the case as you have to remove the entire chain and mainly the chain tensioner guides and tensioner and reset the tensioner after the timing marks are matched and the guides are back in place as the tensioner has a pushback stop which keeps the tensioner at a constant pressure/point as the guides wear down and are required to be at a certain point

2.0 timing chain tensioner

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It's in the Hyundai Service manual under

2.0 Engine Mechanical System - General Information.

Right after the compression test specifics.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Raspberry View Post
It's in the Hyundai Service manual under

2.0 Engine Mechanical System - General Information.

Right after the compression test specifics.
if your referring to "Insert the SST(A) (09240-2G000) in the service hole of the timing chain cover and release the ratchet." then thats not going to keep anything from moving, that simply allows the tensioner stop to float forward and backward as opposed to normal operation where it only moves outward, but if you have remove the cams you will have to remove the entire front cover to redo the timing, theres no other way to get the timing correct as the cams and the sprockets on the cams are very tight fit and you would be risking a whole lots of parts getting messed up if you did it any other way.

I've built 26 of these engines so i have a pretty good understanding of how it goes together, but if i've over looked a process i'd surely love to know about it.

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I have had customers bring back cylinder heads of these types with bent valves telling me I screwed up the valve job, when they had assembled the heads on the block, installed the cams and then turned the cams to get it into time!!!! They did not understand that every thing had to be in time and stay that way. Some of the valves were bent enough to Crack the guides.
All of these type engines are a fine little instrument and one must be meticulous.

Thanks for the pics BadBoy!

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i called a dealership about getting my valves done but they told me the valves on the gdis are self adjusting.... O_o

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i called a dealership about getting my valves done but they told me the valves on the gdis are self adjusting.... O_o
Consider that your warning to never have it serviced there
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i called a dealership about getting my valves done but they told me the valves on the gdis are self adjusting.... O_o
Wow, that is shocking. Scratch that dealer. Seriously there is not excuse for that type of response. I am sure many Hyundai's are, but not all.

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Seems a little odd, with hydraulic buckets good for 7200+ rpm, one would think Hyundai would have used them for these motors but seeing as how they used the utmost in a solid lifter you would think they were expecting tuner cars of much higher rpm... gotta wonder...

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I don't think Hyundai has used anything but the buckets of different thickness for the last 15 years.

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