[FlesHBoX]

Turbo-ing a non turbo car is a lot more involved than a turbo upgrade on an already turbo'd car. The factory turbo car is already designed (especially the world engine) with boost in mind, so there is a lot less likelihood that things will break under the strain.

Also, Factory turbo'd cars are already running lower compression, so it is much easier to turn the boost up than to have to run low compression pistons in a N/A car since that would require (at the very least) dismantling the top end of the engine, and more than likely pulling the engine entirely.

Now that is not to imply that you cannot run boost with higher compression setup, you just can't run nearly as much boost before you start seeing detonation issues and you have to upgrade to race gas/alcohol/etc...

Now, supercharging a V6 is considerably easier than turbo-ing one, as there is nowhere near as much plumbing involved. If you buy a kit to do it, it really can be an almost bolt on affair to get it installed. In fact the Sniper kit from NGM for the V6 Tiburon was literally a bolt on affair that would net you some very decent numbers.

 

[a4avant]

Until your engine blows up

There's a supercharger kit for my Audi/VW 30V 2.8L that works fine as long as you don't give it too much boost - but the engine shares a lot of parts with the 2.7L dual turbo they used in the RS4, so it can take the extra pressure. People who used the supercharger for the 3.0L engine that replaced the 30v ran into all kinds of problems (many needing full engine replacement) because the engine just couldn't take the extra load.

 

[Sebas007]

Boost is maxed out with the pulley size.

 

[Zguy]

How much power would a 350 make on 6 lbs of boost might I ask?

Depends on the year.... if you are boosting an 05 or below (non-revup) then 6 psi would probably get you to the 330-340 whp range depending on your breathing mods. an 06 and up maybe 350-360 whp. There are people who have put down more but then you start looking at how long the motor will last. Its all in the tune. My Vortech put down [email protected] 11.4 psi but then the motor blew, and I was running with full bolt ons. My motor couldnt handle it because I abused it with nitrous for a year before the blower. I can show you my Dyno sheet can you show me the Rstars Dyno sheet? and the mods? For all you know they built the motor? I dont think its possible to get 20.8 hp per pound of boost no matter how you slice it. Because if they are indeed putting down 400-425whp on 6 psi then that is 17-20.1 whp per pound of boost. Sorry I just dont see it.... the finger of god didnt just come down from the heavens and touch the GC to defy boost rules. 10whp per 1 psi is a good rule but you have to be running in a very cold environment or have a sick air intake temp reducer setup. Sorry man I just dont see it.

 

[Polaren]

Good info Zguy, I think everyone is playing up the numbers since we have nothing to compare it to.
Reality will set in once the tuning in N/A starts.

 

[FRCDAIR]

Depends on the year.... if you are boosting an 05 or below (non-revup) then 6 psi would probably get you to the 330-340 whp range depending on your breathing mods. an 06 and up maybe 350-360 whp. There are people who have put down more but then you start looking at how long the motor will last. Its all in the tune. My Vortech put down [email protected] 11.4 psi but then the motor blew, and I was running with full bolt ons. My motor couldnt handle it because I abused it with nitrous for a year before the blower. I can show you my Dyno sheet can you show me the Rstars Dyno sheet? and the mods? For all you know they built the motor? I dont think its possible to get 20.8 hp per pound of boost no matter how you slice it. Because if they are indeed putting down 400-425whp on 6 psi then that is 17-20.1 whp per pound of boost. Sorry I just dont see it.... the finger of god didnt just come down from the heavens and touch the GC to defy boost rules. 10whp per 1 psi is a good rule but you have to be running in a very cold environment or have a sick air intake temp reducer setup. Sorry man I just dont see it.

sorry but it is...and Z's are notorious for getting crappy gains mod for mod...sorry I know you love them and I think they are great cars but Nissan just made them to high tech for their own good.

I don't think we ever saw the R Stars dyno but they did say I/E and 6 psi S/C. Honestly you need to not think of it in set numbers

17-20.1 whp

but rather in %s. A tiburon on a stage to NGM sniper S/C with I/H/E makes around 220-240whp on a loaded dyno. (at around 6 psi, if they don't have headers it is more like 8 psi and NGM doesn't really do stages anymore, he has pulleys for every lb of boost... but anyway)

the same tiburon bone stock makes 140whp on a dynojet (don't know about on a loaded dyno, so this comparison will even be conservative)

that is a 71.43% gain in whp

we know from Korea that the stock 3.8 puts down around 270whp on a dynojet. So add the 71.43% and you gt a good estimate, are the engines exactly the same..no...but compression is close and they are both V6s built by hyundai, it is close enough.

you end up with

462.86.....so given the rough math i just used and the huge amount over 425 that is it is safe to say that it is more than possible.

 

[Tufast]

Why do I feel like I've seen this thread B4, oh I remember because I have at least a 1/2 dozen times. Good thing I'm buying one of each so that way I can have a debate with myself on which engine produces the most power for least amount of money & then prove it.....LoL..:rofl::rofl::squint:oint::woah:

 

[FRCDAIR]

So if you insist on using numbers rather than %s....that is a 100+ whp gain on 6 psi....(+ because the S/C numbers were on a mustang dyno while the base were on a dynojet...so the gain is higher)

that is 16.67 whp per lb of boost. Throw the plus in there and just think about the displacement difference for the gen coupe (this was a 2.7......GC is 3.8 as you know) and 10 whp per psi is doable.

 

[FRCDAIR]

Why do I feel like I've seen this thread B4, oh I remember because I have at least a 1/2 dozen times. Good thing I'm buying one of each so that way I can have a debate with myself on which engine produces the most power for least amount of money & then prove it.....LoL..:rofl::rofl::squint:oint::woah:

that is actually a great idea..you go do that and let us know:rofl:

yea i was going to avoid the thread but i am bored.

 

[cant_stop_spinning]

I'd love to meet your "friends" with TD04's over 300whp
I come from a Subaru background and no 2.0L or 2.5L WRX is going to get 300whp out of a TD04. 300wtq you can, but not whp.

I feel like i'm beating a dead horse or something...

the SRT-4 uses the TD04 as well. We have seen 325 WHP out of it with the right setup. The car had full bolt ons including meth injection. This was also done on 21 PSI. many have been stating they think the limit of the TD04 is around 17 but the guy that tuned his SRT did EXTENSIVE testing to get 325 HP out of it and found that after 21 PSI the turbo looses efficiency.

dont doubt the stock turbo, but dont praise it yet either, its all speculation, but i'm sure we can make it a lot better

 

[Polaren]

I feel like i'm beating a dead horse or something...

the SRT-4 uses the TD04 as well. We have seen 325 WHP out of it with the right setup. The car had full bolt ons including meth injection. This was also done on 21 PSI. many have been stating they think the limit of the TD04 is around 17 but the guy that tuned his SRT did EXTENSIVE testing to get 325 HP out of it and found that after 21 PSI the turbo looses efficiency.

dont doubt the stock turbo, but dont praise it yet either, its all speculation, but i'm sure we can make it a lot better

Yep it's also comparing to AWD as well instead of a SRT wrong wheel drive, which driveline losses are much higher. You also have a 2.4L in a SRT-4 compared to 2.0L's which we are talking about.
Yes beating a dead horse, but the TD04L is not a great turbo, the power band is not great either.

 

[FlesHBoX]

Until your engine blows up

There's a supercharger kit for my Audi/VW 30V 2.8L that works fine as long as you don't give it too much boost - but the engine shares a lot of parts with the 2.7L dual turbo they used in the RS4, so it can take the extra pressure. People who used the supercharger for the 3.0L engine that replaced the 30v ran into all kinds of problems (many needing full engine replacement) because the engine just couldn't take the extra load.

Interestingly enough that 2.7 liter V6 in the tib takes phenomenally well to being boosted... I was almost going to plunk down 4 grand last year on an NGM Sniper kit when the genesis blasted into my life and made any desire to mod my tib go away in anticipation of this car

Boost is maxed out with the pulley size.

this is one HUGE detriment to supercharging.... turbo = finite control, SC=evening project to adjust boost. I've thought about trying to setup a CVT style pulley system that can be controlled electronically, but that's a TON of work to do right

...My Vortech put down [email protected] 11.4 psi but then the motor blew, and I was running with full bolt ons. My motor couldnt handle it because I abused it with nitrous for a year before the blower.

Dude, that sucks every time an engine dies a kitten loses their wings...

I can show you my Dyno sheet can you show me the Rstars Dyno sheet? and the mods? For all you know they built the motor? I dont think its possible to get 20.8 hp per pound of boost no matter how you slice it. Because if they are indeed putting down 400-425whp on 6 psi then that is 17-20.1 whp per pound of boost. Sorry I just dont see it.... the finger of god didnt just come down from the heavens and touch the GC to defy boost rules. 10whp per 1 psi is a good rule but you have to be running in a very cold environment or have a sick air intake temp reducer setup. Sorry man I just dont see it.

Well, given that the car was built in almost no time, I doubt that they built the motor. I have spoken with the guy who did the work on it (briefly, and if I see him online again I will see if I can get dynos sheets for it) and to be completely honest I don't know if they even had time to tune it (unless the ecu is just wide open...). Ultimately though I don't see any reason for they to lie about it. The shop that did the work, from what I can tell, is one of the larger shops (well R*Stars picked them...) and lieing about things like that is a great way to go out of business.

As for the gains... if you do the math, using the standard, accepted formulas of engine math, 6 lbs of boost on a 3.8 liter engine @ 6500 RPM it works out.

Boost is not just about pressure, it is about flow and volumetric efficiency. Using a very conservative VE for this engine, 306 HP (crank) + 6 lbs of boost the estimated HP (crank is 425-ish).

Now, since we have been seeing plots showing ~300 WHP after intake and exhaust (I have yet to even SEE an exhaust header for the 3.8 yet ) and that the apparent drivetrain loss is about 15% this would put the crank HP @ roughly 350

I do not have my handy spreadsheet here at work to just plug the numbers, but once you plug the numbers in it all works out. Minus the drivetrain loss and you have in the neighborhood of 400-425 WHP... So their claim is not outlandish by any stretch of the imagination, at least not according to the scientists...

 

[FRCDAIR]

I feel like i'm beating a dead horse or something...

just cut it's freaking head of man!!!!!:rofl:

 

[Cynic65]

I have a hard time believing that 360+whp with minor bolt-ons. Please post some proof of your claims.

My bad. It was crank HP not WHP. Anyways, it appears the bolt ons will make for a ~300 whp drive.

http://www.gencoupe.com/general-discussion/8890-how-306hp-v6-genesis-coupe-became-364hp-v6-genesis-coupe-dyno-graphs.html

 

[Shin]

Yep it's also comparing to AWD as well instead of a SRT wrong wheel drive, which driveline losses are much higher. You also have a 2.4L in a SRT-4 compared to 2.0L's which we are talking about.
Yes beating a dead horse, but the TD04L is not a great turbo, the power band is not great either.

your thinking has me puzzled.
The displacement of the engine will effect the power band that's it...
The turbo will max out around the same HP on any displacement in similar set ups.
Wrong wheel drive drivetrain loss is 11%(industry norm) and right wheel drive loss is 15%(again industry norm) 15-11=4. 325*4%=312whp

No one is saying its a good turbo btw, they're saying don't count it out.

 

[Polaren]

I can post up dyno sheets of a 2.0L WRX TD04 and a 2.5L WRX TD04 with the same boost and the numbers are not the same. The 2.5L puts out more whp and wtq because of the displacement.

Your way of thinking has me puzzled..If I stick a TD04 on a 1.6L 4cyl or a 2.5L 4Cyl the power is the same? I have no idea how you are thinking. :dunno:

Displacement will always effect the amount of power that will be put down. If you are talking about efficiency range well yes that won't change. I was making a point that the SRT-4 numbers are on a engine with .4L extra displacement..so if you want to take that into account you probably won't see 300whp on a 2.0L Turbo Genesis since the stock turbo would max out before then.

 

[superman1128]

oh boy I knew i was starting something with this post lol.

 

[Polaren]

oh boy I knew i was starting something with this post lol.

Oh it's fun though..it was bound to come up at one point or another. Everyone get's to learn lot's

 

[FlesHBoX]

A given turbo will definitely make different power on different displacement engines... It's all a matter of flow.. a larger engine flows more air, and in order to make a specific amount of boost pressure will require more air... therefore the same turbo on a larger engine may not even be able to make the same boost pressure (unless it is oversized for the smaller engine...)

Horsepower is a product of the amount of air you can move through the engine because the air carries the fuel and the power comes from the fuel. The more fuel you can move through, the more power you get out.

 

[Polaren]

^^ At least someone knows what they are talking about.

You'd think turbo engines are a new technology. :squint: