Hyundai Genesis Forum banner

41 - 60 of 66 Posts

·
In Charge of Snacks
Joined
·
2,057 Posts
Oh and on the e92 M3s. I have a friend that had every possible bolt on and tune from AA and he only made 367whp.
This is my point precisely. For 390 whp we are effectively requesting 480 hp at the crank or, in more critical terms, 127hp per liter. That's a tall order without forced induction. 130 per liter has been done, but not below screaming rpm levels with lunatic cash spent on balancing, oiling, windage, reciprocating weight reduction, etc. Still, I want cams...
 

·
End Me, Begin Him
Joined
·
689 Posts
Discussion Starter #42
I'm definitely curious about this, but as a noob to tuning, I'm not sure of the specifics. I definitely wouldn't be able to pull my own engine and do a cam swap. What would this look like to actually get it done?
• Would this be a new cam shaft / cams? Or would it require sending them yours first to modify?
• Optimally you would need a custom BTR tune, but it sounds like you're saying you could drive this on the stock ECU without risking damage. Is that correct?
It looks like parts and labor would be somewhere in the upper $3900 range, which does seem reasonable for those kind of gains.
Thanks for your patience!
The $959 is for re-profiling your CAMs (Level 1 or Level 2 shelf profile). You are paying for a service. If you want a completely custom profile, the price is $1259. In either case, you must submit your CAMs as cores for the service. Shelf profiles take 3-4 weeks to be completed and custom profiles take 6-8 weeks to be completed. If you don’t want to wait, you can purchase new CAM cores through them for an additional $550. As of right now, I have confirmed that with the Level 2 and Custom profiled CAMs, you will need to run their upgraded Spring and retainer kit for $599.

Bisimoto said that you “should” be able to run their shelf profiles on stock tuned ECU however, I would definitely not be going WOT or pushing high rpms without a tune. That’s just me though.
To remove cams you have to take of upper plenum, valve covers, radiator and fan, and front timing cover. That's it.
Awesome info. I suspected the same because that’s all I’ve had to do or seen done in the past for similar engines.
Oh and on the e92 M3s. I have a friend that had every possible bolt on and tune from AA and he only made 367whp.
Well I am sorry to hear that for your friend. What was he making stock? Auto or Manual? That is not what I am seeing on the boards. Maybe his mods don’t play well with each other, like an intake that is restrictive in high rpms or an exhaust that is too large to maintain the scavenging effect.

Here is the guy I mentioned with the 396whp E92 M3 (2013). He also has a stock M4 that put down 420whp stock on the same dyno:
M4 1/4 Mile Comparison vs FBO E92 M3 - VBox Verified

See... Now I'm seriously thinking of pulling my entire engine to go balls deep in it for full build and see just where I could get with build, cams, head work and tune, and keep it N/A....
Cool, yea I want to see what this engine can do NA.

This is my point precisely. For 390 whp we are effectively requesting 480 hp at the crank or, in more critical terms, 127hp per liter. That's a tall order without forced induction. 130 per liter has been done, but not below screaming rpm levels with lunatic cash spent on balancing, oiling, windage, reciprocating weight reduction, etc. Still, I want cams...
Like said above, the BMW M3 with a 4.0L V8 made 396whp or 99whp per Liter. If that was possible with our cars, that would be 3.8LV6 making 376whp. At any rate, look in the next post for the official response from Bisimoto’s engineering staff on the power capabilities of the Level 2 CAM.
 

·
End Me, Begin Him
Joined
·
689 Posts
Discussion Starter #43
This was the latest response I received from Bisimoto in regards to their Level 2 CAM profile:


Hello Alec,

Thank you for your patience. The Engineering Department was able to share with me these numbers. With a proper tune and supporting components: Intake, Header, Exhaust you can expect to the wheel 29-44 WHP on our level 2 profile.

Design process will take about 3-4 weeks. You will still need to run at minimum the Spring and Retainer Kit in order to ensure proper seat pressures and height. Let me know, when you would like to move forward.

Have a great weekend!


Sincerely,
Janet Ruvalcaba


As for what that actually means on my car, I will have to see what my numbers actually look like on February 7th but if Travis were to go this route, he would be looking at 365-380whp...atleast according to Bisimoto's engineering staff.
 

·
In Charge of Snacks
Joined
·
2,057 Posts
Like said above, the BMW M3 with a 4.0L V8 made 396whp or 99whp per Liter. If that was possible with our cars, that would be 3.8LV6 making 376whp. At any rate, look in the next post for the official response from Bisimoto’s engineering staff on the power capabilities of the Level 2 CAM.
The BMW S65 engine also has a 12:1 compression ratio and Independent throttle bodies with velocity stacks and it revs stock above 8300 rpm. And being a 90* V8 also has better balance lending it better efficiency than all but the tightest angle V6s. Also, assuming average 19% drivetrain loss, the tuned Bimmer you referenced is only producing 122hp/liter. A feat BMW and Honda have both been able to achieve in the past. Were you to squeeze 122hp/liter from The GDI Lambda after drivetrain losses you should see 375ish to the wheels.
I don't want to be a buzzkill here, but if you pull off 122/liter under 8k rpm, under 12:1 compression, and without a spiffy positive pressure intake manifold, I'll be surprised. I'd give you a legit shot at 110=115 hp / liter. At 115/liter you should see 355 or so to the wheels, which would be awesome. For reference, you'll need 130hp/liter to get 400 to the wheels. The 458 Italia with its splendid hand built engine makes 127hp/liter- that's the field you're trying to play on.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
130 Posts
The BMW S65 engine also has a 12:1 compression ratio and Independent throttle bodies with velocity stacks and it revs stock above 8300 rpm. And being a 90* V8 also has better balance lending it better efficiency than all but the tightest angle V6s. Also, assuming average 19% drivetrain loss, the tuned Bimmer you referenced is only producing 122hp/liter. A feat BMW and Honda have both been able to achieve in the past. Were you to squeeze 122hp/liter from The GDI Lambda after drivetrain losses you should see 375ish to the wheels.
I don't want to be a buzzkill here, but if you pull off 122/liter under 8k rpm, under 12:1 compression, and without a spiffy positive pressure intake manifold, I'll be surprised. I'd give you a legit shot at 110=115 hp / liter. At 115/liter you should see 355 or so to the wheels, which would be awesome. For reference, you'll need 130hp/liter to get 400 to the wheels. The 458 Italia with its splendid hand built engine makes 127hp/liter- that's the field you're trying to play on.
I doubt he will get to 400whp, but if Bisimoto's #'s are right he could make it too 380 whp. Look at the dyno sheets from this build.

http://www.gencoupe.com/gencoupe-build-projects/131291-before-after-dyno-s-stock-13-3-8-a.html
 

·
In Charge of Snacks
Joined
·
2,057 Posts
I doubt he will get to 400whp, but if Bisimoto's #'s are right he could make it too 380 whp. Look at the dyno sheets from this build.

http://www.gencoupe.com/gencoupe-build-projects/131291-before-after-dyno-s-stock-13-3-8-a.html
I read the whole thread. The best dyno I saw represented 109hp/liter power density, which is good. I expect with headers and a port and polish and cams he could have achieved 115/liter, maybe even 120. But at 120 hp/liter that's still only 369hp to the wheels assuming a conservative 19% drivetrain loss. Can it be done? Sure. But it will be extremely impressive to achieve with just cams.
 

·
End Me, Begin Him
Joined
·
689 Posts
Discussion Starter #49 (Edited)
First, please understand that I am not going to lose sleep over not hitting 400whp N/A. My real goal is 350whp so I am overshooting and guaranteeing that I hit my goal. Even Bisimoto said that a custom profile could better guarantee 400whp. Right now, I am more inclined to go the route of the Level 2 shelf profile but we'll see when it actually comes time to take the plunge.

Second, it is possible to exceed 100whp/L with cams.

Here is an e46 m3 (3.2L) making 353whp with a measly 247ft-lbs of tq:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGOB_tBDHv0

Yea he revs out to 8K but that is to make 110.3whp/L. The equivalent on our engines would be 419whp. Our engines are GDI and as shown by Travis, are capable of making over 50ft-lbs of tq more than the e46 m3 throughout much of our power band with stock cams. In addition, if the graph is to be interpreted, it looks like the guy makes about 320whp at 7K with about 240ft-lbs of tq which is 100whp/L. If it was our car and we could hold that 50ft-lb advantage, that would equal 386whp at 7K.

Oh and by the way @Odelagt, the GDI 3.8's have an 11.5:1 compression ratio which is pretty good

The question we are asking mostly is whether or not CAMS can help us hold that power longer. My vote is yes. It will be a little while for me to figure out tuning etc but I would like to go this route. If it works, cool. If not, well atleast we have proof.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,773 Posts
Omega and Terrance,

Thanks for the kind response. That completely clarifies it and has helped me learn!

Much Appreciated!


Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App
 

·
Work in Progress
Joined
·
6,496 Posts
Install cost kept me from seriously looking into this. I got the quote of 22-26 hours and that's a lot of money + cams + tuning for a few horsepower.
 

·
Go Hyundai!
Joined
·
1,009 Posts
Install cost kept me from seriously looking into this. I got the quote of 22-26 hours and that's a lot of money + cams + tuning for a few horsepower.
Assuming you could find some cheap backyard mechanic charging only $50 an hour (unlikely, and who would trust them?), that is still $1100-$1300 for labor + $959 for the cams + $599 for the upgraded spring and retainer kit + $750 for BTRs tune (+$75-$100 for the dyno shop for the tune) = $3483-$3708 bare minimum.

Assuming on the high side, making an additional 50 hp (unlikely again), that works out to $69.66-$74.16/hp. If you went on the high side for price ($3800) and low side for hp (30), that would be $126/hp.

Turbokits.com's kit is about $6500 (if you get some of the bells and whistles), and even if you had a shop install it for say $1000 (it's about 20 hours by a mechanic), that's $7500 and you could easily make 100 more whp. That works out to about the same - $75/hp.

But with the turbo, you could turn up the boost and make another 50 hp with just a tune for say $850. That extra 50 hp would be $17/hp. Or if you put it all together, $8350/150 hp = $55/hp.

The turbo route is proven and tested. The cams, well that is uncharted territory.

Just my 2 cents and some food for thought.
 

·
In Charge of Snacks
Joined
·
2,057 Posts
Assuming you could find some cheap backyard mechanic charging only $50 an hour (unlikely, and who would trust them?), that is still $1100-$1300 for labor + $959 for the cams + $599 for the upgraded spring and retainer kit + $750 for BTRs tune (+$75-$100 for the dyno shop for the tune) = $3483-$3708 bare minimum.

Assuming on the high side, making an additional 50 hp (unlikely again), that works out to $69.66-$74.16/hp. If you went on the high side for price ($3800) and low side for hp (30), that would be $126/hp.

Turbokits.com's kit is about $6500 (if you get some of the bells and whistles), and even if you had a shop install it for say $1000 (it's about 20 hours by a mechanic), that's $7500 and you could easily make 100 more whp. That works out to about the same - $75/hp.

But with the turbo, you could turn up the boost and make another 50 hp with just a tune for say $850. That extra 50 hp would be $17/hp. Or if you put it all together, $8350/150 hp = $55/hp.

The turbo route is proven and tested. The cams, well that is uncharted territory.

Just my 2 cents and some food for thought.
You know you're absolutely right if the end goal is power and power alone. But there is a "feel" to a beastly NA car that runs like a sewing machine. Swift throttle response, a linearity to the power delivery that only the most tech turbo setups can come close to matching... It's not all about power to all of us.
I am personally quite willing to blow money on a spare engine, heads, cams, a custom manifold, real working headers, maybe even something crazy like a dry sump to get that NA scream.
No, I won't win at the drag strip and any corvette or camaro or mustang will "beat me" in a straight line, but I have my priorities. And some of those include geeking out over the technical perfection and engineering At the end of the day, a quartz Seiko keeps better time than an automatic Tag Heuer. Which is the better watch?

First, please understand that I am not going to lose sleep over not hitting 400whp N/A. My real goal is 350whp so I am overshooting and guaranteeing that I hit my goal. Even Bisimoto said that a custom profile could better guarantee 400whp. Right now, I am more inclined to go the route of the Level 2 shelf profile but we'll see when it actually comes time to take the plunge.

Second, it is possible to exceed 100whp/L with cams.

Here is an e46 m3 (3.2L) making 353whp with a measly 247ft-lbs of tq:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGOB_tBDHv0

Yea he revs out to 8K but that is to make 110.3whp/L. The equivalent on our engines would be 419whp. Our engines are GDI and as shown by Travis, are capable of making over 50ft-lbs of tq more than the e46 m3 throughout much of our power band with stock cams. In addition, if the graph is to be interpreted, it looks like the guy makes about 320whp at 7K with about 240ft-lbs of tq which is 100whp/L. If it was our car and we could hold that 50ft-lb advantage, that would equal 386whp at 7K.

Oh and by the way @Odelagt, the GDI 3.8's have an 11.5:1 compression ratio which is pretty good

The question we are asking mostly is whether or not CAMS can help us hold that power longer. My vote is yes. It will be a little while for me to figure out tuning etc but I would like to go this route. If it works, cool. If not, well atleast we have proof.
Dude, you have to notice the other mods. This M3 has a 93 octane tune, a slick header setup, an exhaust dump port to bypass the cats and muffler, has underdrive pulleys, and has a different rear end final ratio. You're comparing apples to oranges. Also, all these M engines you keep referencing have 8400rpm redlines, ITB's, and scavenging pumps to reduce crankcase windage. If you did all the same stuff, yeah, I could see you pulling 130hp/liter.
As for 350whp, yeah, totally doable. That's something you will likely achieve. Also, according to the other GDI build thread, all head parts including cams are interchangeable. So my stuff should work for Bisi. Let me know...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
You know you're absolutely right if the end goal is power and power alone. But there is a "feel" to a beastly NA car that runs like a sewing machine. Swift throttle response, a linearity to the power delivery that only the most tech turbo setups can come close to matching... It's not all about power to all of us.
I am personally quite willing to blow money on a spare engine, heads, cams, a custom manifold, real working headers, maybe even something crazy like a dry sump to get that NA scream.
No, I won't win at the drag strip and any corvette or camaro or mustang will "beat me" in a straight line, but I have my priorities. And some of those include geeking out over the technical perfection and engineering At the end of the day, a quartz Seiko keeps better time than an automatic Tag Heuer. Which is the better watch?



Dude, you have to notice the other mods. This M3 has a 93 octane tune, a slick header setup, an exhaust dump port to bypass the cats and muffler, has underdrive pulleys, and has a different rear end final ratio. You're comparing apples to oranges. Also, all these M engines you keep referencing have 8400rpm redlines, ITB's, and scavenging pumps to reduce crankcase windage. If you did all the same stuff, yeah, I could see you pulling 130hp/liter.
As for 350whp, yeah, totally doable. That's something you will likely achieve. Also, according to the other GDI build thread, all head parts including cams are interchangeable. So my stuff should work for Bisi. Let me know...
Yep, the Lambda is a pretty decent workhorse of an engine, but these bespoke M GmbH engines are in a class of their own, packed with the features you mention that are normally reserved for exotics. People forget that when the E46 M3 first came out it had a better specific output than the Porsche 996.1 GT3 at the time. And it being a 3.2L I6 vs a 3.6L H6, was a fair comparison too, not some ricer "hurrdurr B16 has more hp/L than LS7 so chevy sux!" argument.

I'm all for pushing the envelope, especially NA, on these cars. I think they have a ton of untapped potential and I'd love to turn my gencoupe into a track car once it finishes its services as my DD. ~330whp or so would be amazing for that purpose. But the S54, S65, and S85 will go down as some of the best NA motors in history, and expecting to match one in specific output, with similar mods, is not gonna happen with our cars. It also hasn't been that long since they've figured out the NA tuning for the E46 M3. Bolt-ons for a long time were considered a waste of time and the engine was thought to be "maxed out" from the factory. Only in the last couple years have they really sorted out Alpha N tuning, which has been key to getting the most out of NA mods on the car.

So yea, even after we have all of our hardware and a tuning solution, we could still be waiting quite a while for people to figure things out.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
130 Posts
Yep, the Lambda is a pretty decent workhorse of an engine, but these bespoke M GmbH engines are in a class of their own, packed with the features you mention that are normally reserved for exotics. People forget that when the E46 M3 first came out it had a better specific output than the Porsche 996.1 GT3 at the time. And it being a 3.2L I6 vs a 3.6L H6, was a fair comparison too, not some ricer "hurrdurr B16 has more hp/L than LS7 so chevy sux!" argument.

I'm all for pushing the envelope, especially NA, on these cars. I think they have a ton of untapped potential and I'd love to turn my gencoupe into a track car once it finishes its services as my DD. ~330whp or so would be amazing for that purpose. But the S54, S65, and S85 will go down as some of the best NA motors in history, and expecting to match one in specific output, with similar mods, is not gonna happen with our cars. It also hasn't been that long since they've figured out the NA tuning for the E46 M3. Bolt-ons for a long time were considered a waste of time and the engine was thought to be "maxed out" from the factory. Only in the last couple years have they really sorted out Alpha N tuning, which has been key to getting the most out of NA mods on the car.

So yea, even after we have all of our hardware and a tuning solution, we could still be waiting quite a while for people to figure things out.
If you look at all of the dyno's on the before and after dyno's I posted above, @GenCoupe13 , He put down 336whp without cam's. I think people are underestimating our engines.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
40,498 Posts
Yanno... don't have to estimate if you do it. After you get done, you can just tell people what you did.
 

·
Sleeper!
Joined
·
809 Posts
If you look at all of the dyno's on the before and after dyno's I posted above, @GenCoupe13 , He put down 336whp without cam's. I think people are underestimating our engines.
That run after being tuned was with stock secondary cats on, stock intake, and no Port and Polish on the manifolds just so everyone knows. Looking forward to someone putting these CAM's on and seeing what she will do N/A without cracking the motor completely.
 

·
In Charge of Snacks
Joined
·
2,057 Posts
And I want to see what a full lunatic build NA motor will do. 13.5:1 on meth or 93 tune, bored, stroked with lightweight internals, sleeved and decked, pnp headwork with valves, cams with roller bearings, proper headers, velocity stack or itb intake, negative crankcase pressure, WPC treat cryo and DLC coat everything... Should be good for 125-135/ltr out of 4.4 liters displacement. A good 445 to the wheels ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
157 Posts
Very interested in this idea ! I actually emailed bismoto about it! I think we'd have to go with a BTR tune because diablo isn't coming out from another 6 months and that's for 2.0s they haven't started on 3.8s :/ was interested in a piggy back but I've told it's more trouble than its worth?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
hi all
i have been reading all threads about the 3.8 cam and im really interested to buy a set of these stage 1 cam... pleases help me with that
i have emailed allot but they always have the same answer
which is.. they only can regrind my OEM cams
guide me pleases .... thanx
 
41 - 60 of 66 Posts
Top