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MR TURBO 2 U
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
ok i know theres threads out there but with this one i wanted to make a q&a thread that if you have a spec your chasing or a part fit question you ask it and only people with facts reply its not a chat thread its a 100% known facts thread please don't destroy it if kept clean it can be invaluable for reference!

as an example ill start with:

1, has anyone fitted a evo fuel rail to the 2.0t? or
2, has anyone weighed a 2.0t clutch and flywheel assembly complete?
3, has anyone weighed a 3.8 clutch and flywheel assembly complete?

feel free to answer if you have facts!
 

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Torque Junky
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2.0 clutch n flywheel stock weighed 38#, 2.0 spec clutch n flywheel weigh 42#
 

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MR TURBO 2 U
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862 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·

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What's the stock thermostat temp at? Mishimoto is 62F, I was curious if it was worthwhile to purchase the aftermarket thermostat.
 

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Out Pissing Off cops!
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what's the stock thermostat temp at? Mishimoto is 62f, i was curious if it was worthwhile to purchase the aftermarket thermostat.
180*

Grimmspeed offers a 160* thermostat, but if you live anywhere but down south, you won't benefit from it. Also there was posts about why we shouldn't use lower temp thermostats since our ECU controls boost levels according to engine/coolant/oil temps. So if you have the thermostat open earlier and start cooling the liquid down sooner, then you might not see the proper temps in the fluids as fast.
 

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3.5L TT but wrong body
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180*

Grimmspeed offers a 160* thermostat, but if you live anywhere but down south, you won't benefit from it. Also there was posts about why we shouldn't use lower temp thermostats since our ECU controls boost levels according to engine/coolant/oil temps. So if you have the thermostat open earlier and start cooling the liquid down sooner, then you might not see the proper temps in the fluids as fast.
X2. Except I'd say skip it all together unless you get a tune specifically for it.

Import tuner did an article a while back and showed a 2-3whp loss across the board, not just peak, with a 160* thermostat on a miata. A quote from the article:

"Hotter engines make more power. Sure, cooler air and fuel is denser, meaning more of it can fill the combustion chambers to make more power, but once detonated, less energy (heat in this case) being absorbed by engine material and coonats means more of it can be put toward forward motion. Also, many of todays knock-sensor-equipped cars are programmed to run optimally at a pre-set temperature;lowering that temperature might keep your engine from running on it's optimal fuel/timing trims."

"WRXs and STIs that aren't driven hard lose power with cooler thermostats," explains Tuning Technologies' Alfred Beltran, "usually as much as 10-15whp".
 

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MR TURBO 2 U
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862 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
X2. Except I'd say skip it all together unless you get a tune specifically for it.

Import tuner did an article a while back and showed a 2-3whp loss across the board, not just peak, with a 160* thermostat on a miata. A quote from the article:

"Hotter engines make more power. Sure, cooler air and fuel is denser, meaning more of it can fill the combustion chambers to make more power, but once detonated, less energy (heat in this case) being absorbed by engine material and coonats means more of it can be put toward forward motion. Also, many of todays knock-sensor-equipped cars are programmed to run optimally at a pre-set temperature;lowering that temperature might keep your engine from running on it's optimal fuel/timing trims."

"WRXs and STIs that aren't driven hard lose power with cooler thermostats," explains Tuning Technologies' Alfred Beltran, "usually as much as 10-15whp".
heres a few reasons to keep std temp thermoststs:
1, the engine will actually run cooler in hot weather as the water has more time in the radiator to cool down further using less flow to bring the temps down more effectively
2, thermo temps set in ecu
3, boost is normally cross referenced to engine temp
4, timing x temp tables
5, fuel x temp tables

effectively as mentioned above your engine will always run on cold start type settings adding fuel removing timing and boost etc.

this is the real short and simple version!
 

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Out Pissing Off cops!
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heres a few reasons to keep std temp thermoststs:
1, the engine will actually run cooler in hot weather as the water has more time in the radiator to cool down further using less flow to bring the temps down more effectively
2, thermo temps set in ecu
3, boost is normally cross referenced to engine temp
4, timing x temp tables
5, fuel x temp tables

effectively as mentioned above your engine will always run on cold start type settings adding fuel removing timing and boost etc.

this is the real short and simple version!
How about the long version, because aside from points 3 which is repeating what I said before, points 1 and 2 makes no sense to me, and points 4 and 5 are general knowledge which applies to every car out there and has nothing to do with the Thermostat....

Point 1:How is the water being cooled more or longer with a 180* thermo than a 160* one? IIRC the only thing the thermostat does is stay closed until a pre-set water temperature is reached, then it opens to let the water coming from the block get further cooling. When the Thermostat opens, it doesn't close back until the car is shut off and cooled down...

Please elaborate on this.

Point 2:What would the ECU do knowing what the thermostat rating is? It has no control over it nor would it need to.

Only thing the ECU sees is water/oil temps. From that it extrapolates the data it needs to keep the engine running @ it's optimal working temperature.

Please explain that point too, I'm very curious.

Thanks!
 

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heres a few reasons to keep std temp thermoststs:
1, the engine will actually run cooler in hot weather as the water has more time in the radiator to cool down further using less flow to bring the temps down more effectively
2, thermo temps set in ecu
3, boost is normally cross referenced to engine temp
4, timing x temp tables
5, fuel x temp tables

effectively as mentioned above your engine will always run on cold start type settings adding fuel removing timing and boost etc.

this is the real short and simple version!

I'm really not sure what you're getting at, as far as I can tell, you're just repeating what other people say in your own words.
I'm not sure how effective of a response that is, but keep at it!


I think that the ECU reflash capabilities should come out, and then we should TEST the variables and choose which ones are best.

I acknowledge the post above from the x Magazine, but that mag didn't tune for the engine temps to be 20* lower. If they did, they might get better results.
 

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FUNCTION OVER FORM
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5,383 Posts
Alright, I would like to know more about why the 160* GrimmSpeed thermostat will cause negative effects compared to the OEM 180* unit, because I have both & would like to know which one is better for my build & my location (Columbus, Ga - 2hrs south of Atlanta). I can run my OEM one for now & install the GrimmSpeed when I go in for my tune, but I would prefer to install the GrimmSpeed now while all my coolant is drained & I'm replacing the radiator & hoses.
 

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MR TURBO 2 U
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862 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
How about the long version, because aside from points 3 which is repeating what I said before, points 1 and 2 makes no sense to me, and points 4 and 5 are general knowledge which applies to every car out there and has nothing to do with the Thermostat....

pa...tried a few times times today to write a long version but sleep dep. is catching up! ok 1&2 are simple so ill keep them simple:

Point 1:How is the water being cooled more or longer with a 180* thermo than a 160* one? IIRC the only thing the thermostat does is stay closed until a pre-set water temperature is reached, then it opens to let the water coming from the block get further cooling. When the Thermostat opens, it doesn't close back until the car is shut off and cooled down...

pa...ok with a 180 deg thermostat the water is allowed extra time in the radiator cooling it further as such run more efficiently!!!
"iirc"?
wrong a thermostat opens and closes according to temp infinately variable to keep constant temp!

Please elaborate on this.

Point 2:What would the ECU do knowing what the thermostat rating is? It has no control over it nor would it need to.

pa...it don't need to have control over thermostat but thermo fans yes and temp control yes!

so when certain temps are reached the ecu controls the fan to further lower rad. temps

but if the thermostat has been open earlier/longer this effectively heats the rad further then the temp difference between rad and block are less creating heating issues!! (reduction in efficiency)

Only thing the ECU sees is water/oil temps. From that it extrapolates the data it needs to keep the engine running @ it's optimal working temperature

pa...i assume you mean points 4 &5? if so they simply mean fuel and timing tables are cross refferenced with temp and if the temp is low then your running in the cold start tables so rich and less timing

Please explain that point too, I'm very curious.

Thanks!
hope that helps
 

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MR TURBO 2 U
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862 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I'm really not sure what you're getting at, as far as I can tell, you're just repeating what other people say in your own words.
I'm not sure how effective of a response that is, but keep at it!


I think that the ECU reflash capabilities should come out, and then we should TEST the variables and choose which ones are best.

I acknowledge the post above from the x Magazine, but that mag didn't tune for the engine temps to be 20* lower. If they did, they might get better results.
i think its a cross between my sleep dep. since getting hurt in china a month ago and my aussie accent seems some get me and other never will!!!
 

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MR TURBO 2 U
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862 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Alright, I would like to know more about why the 160* GrimmSpeed thermostat will cause negative effects compared to the OEM 180* unit, because I have both & would like to know which one is better for my build & my location (Columbus, Ga - 2hrs south of Atlanta). I can run my OEM one for now & install the GrimmSpeed when I go in for my tune, but I would prefer to install the GrimmSpeed now while all my coolant is drained & I'm replacing the radiator & hoses.
do as you please but i would go to a 190 rather than a 160 as the opposite to lowering the thermo temp occurs!
1, longer time for coolant to drop temp increasing rad efficiency
2, fans are normally set at 195-205 on a 180 thermostat equipped car
3, thermal efficiency of the engine increases thus retaining more heat in the combustion process reducing thermal conductivity to the water jacket wasting good energy!
4, could go on but cant be stuffed right now ask away and ill try answer later! after some rest!
 

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Ok seriously.. you're confusing the hell out of me now.

Why is it that most turbo cars have an upgraded radiator? It's not because of the stock radiator being too "worn out".
Aftermarket radiators from Mishimoto reduce the temperature, by how much? I cannot be sure, but for sure it reduces it.

It's actually a horrible idea to increase the engine temperature. High pressure + high heat = high chance of detonation.
High pressure + lower heat = no/less detonation
20* may not seem like a lot, but it could be enough to cause detonation. And if your engine is detonating, kiss it goodbye.
 

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I'd rather do it myself
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Alright, I would like to know more about why the 160* GrimmSpeed thermostat will cause negative effects compared to the OEM 180* unit, because I have both & would like to know which one is better for my build & my location (Columbus, Ga - 2hrs south of Atlanta). I can run my OEM one for now & install the GrimmSpeed when I go in for my tune, but I would prefer to install the GrimmSpeed now while all my coolant is drained & I'm replacing the radiator & hoses.
If you use a lower temp t-stat you need a bigger radiator and to have the fan come on at a lower temp. If the fan does not come on below 200F then the t-stat will not make any difference. The t-stat only sets minimum coolant temp.

FWIW my BR tune has the fan on almost all the time, i assume it shuts off at highway speeds. Maybe not though.-

On my last car I had a manual switch that would turn the fan on high as long as the key was in run. Great for the track. It would be simple as pie as you only need to wire a ground through a switch to the hi speed fan relay coil.
 

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MR TURBO 2 U
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862 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Ok seriously.. you're confusing the hell out of me now.

Why is it that most turbo cars have an upgraded radiator? It's not because of the stock radiator being too "worn out".
Aftermarket radiators from Mishimoto reduce the temperature, by how much? I cannot be sure, but for sure it reduces it.

It's actually a horrible idea to increase the engine temperature. High pressure + high heat = high chance of detonation.
High pressure + lower heat = no/less detonation
20* may not seem like a lot, but it could be enough to cause detonation. And if your engine is detonating, kiss it goodbye.
why is it that ford australia use the same radiator for the turbo 6 and n/a 6 with a 195f thermostat?

why is it joe fontana and tom leib build their race motors to run at 230f with 26psi caps? (fontana automotive, scat enterprises)

then tell me why its horrible and how controlled temps cause uncontrolled burning = detonation?

other than marketing hype you have no facts! so why make statements not ask questions?
 

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I'll explain it in different words..

The lower thermostat is similar to a turbo headgasket.
a thicker head gasket reduces compression.
lower compression = higher "safe" boost.
higher boost = more power.
Now the downfall is that if you're n/a with turbo headgaskets you lose power.
Less off-boost power.

the thermo is very similar when you think about it.
I'm done arguing, this is literally pointless.
by the way, the ford australia probable uses the same radiator and the same thermostat to save money, because it's a production car. What's the lowest octane you can buy in Australia?
Joe Fontana might have built the car to run on a different fuel..
 

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MR TURBO 2 U
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I'll explain it in different words..

The lower thermostat is similar to a turbo headgasket.
a thicker head gasket reduces compression.
lower compression = higher "safe" boost.
higher boost = more power.
Now the downfall is that if you're n/a with turbo headgaskets you lose power.
Less off-boost power.

the thermo is very similar when you think about it.
I'm done arguing, this is literally pointless.
by the way, the ford australia probable uses the same radiator and the same thermostat to save money, because it's a production car. What's the lowest octane you can buy in Australia?
Joe Fontana might have built the car to run on a different fuel..
it maybe an argument for you but if you read the previous posts i had already answered them and it was pointless you asking the same questions!!!

ford do so to get better burning efficiency for emissions side benefit better power!

91ron but not measured the same as your fuel it should equal your 87odd

joe did so to get more power and made it safe with the tune!

ask and ill help state and i won't!!!

show me respect and i will you!

seems to many rude peeps on here or is it lost in what we are used to?

every yank i've met has been over accommodating like me! its strange to get the attitude i get here?

so sorry and lets start fresh!!!

ohh and no to your theory above nothing like it!
 
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