Hyundai Genesis Forum banner

21 - 40 of 58 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
76 Posts
Discussion Starter #21
Short answer here is that you are in a public forum, have invited the public to comment. You can't have someone "removed" from a thread simply because you don't agree with what they are saying. As long as nobody here violates the terms of service, they can say pretty much what they want. You can disagree with them... you can even IGNORE them... but the moderators of this forum are not here to coddle you. If you don't like the way some people are going to answer your question, don't ask everyone to comment by posting on a public forum.
Thank you for your attention... we now return you to the ongoing thread.
I understand ... thanks

p.s. Volume vs Pressure... not the same thing.
I already know this as i already mentioned this several times ... I just don't think they are understanding because they keep hitting me with the same things rather than explaining to me WHY ... I KNOW pressure is different from CFM ... So they keep saying because your new turbo at 14 psi will exceed the ecu's limits and throw it into limp mode, etc, etc ... after i TOLD them that i would be MATCHING cfm from one turbo to the next ... NOT pressure as they keep referring to ...

If you had a MAF sensor instead of a MAP sensor, you might be able to get away with a larger turbo without a tune... but you don't, so you can't.
Yes i know this already ... A MAF measures cfm or volume so as it measures more volume, the ecu will account for it... My nissan has a MAF and i went from a smaller turbo to a larger turbo without a tune because the MAF accounted for the extra CFM at less pressure ..
This car does NOT have a MAF... it has a MAP sensor which only reads vacuum and pressure ... So it does NOT know how much CFM or Volume its getting ... Only what the pressure is ... SO with that said the only thing that can be done is to match the CFM flow rates from the smaller to the larger turbo.. Make sure the new turbo does not get too high in pressure to where it out flows the stock turbo's cfm rating to keep the a/f ratios the same ... So if the stock turbo flows 1000 cfm at 17 psi, you make sure the new turbo flows NO MORE than 1000 cfm which would be around ~8 psi or whatever psi that comes to ...
Am i in the ball park here or an i still wrong..??
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
211 Posts
The reason you're looking for is..... The ECU. My 2JZ runs on Maf too and I can upsize the turbo and it'll run fine since it just runs on CFM and AFRs. As long as I don't exceed the injectors I can run whatever boost level I want. For Hyundai I don't think it's the same because of the ECU. It wants to meet what's its programmed for. If you meet its demands, then yes, you should have no problems. If not...... limp mode and error codes
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
211 Posts
And your issues would likely only be present at lower RPMs not higher. Daily driving is usually affected more adversely when not using the stock turbo or one extremely similar
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,816 Posts
This i already know and mentioned it twice... The only thing that changes between 2 different sized turbos at the same pressure is the CFM ... This motor does NOT measure CFM afaik... It is only equipped with a MAP sensor to determine vacuum or pressure, then the O2 sensor monitors the a/f and adjusts accordingly ..
cfm would affect a/f directly. If the ecu constantly adjusts the fuel too far because of a/f, you are going to get a persistent EPROM error in the ecu, and then going above 4k rpm and above 15 psi is going to trip the code again, and again, and again (I know from experience)
The only way to fix that, is to replace the ecu or wipe and reprogram it, which is going to cost a little less than just getting it tuned in the first place.
And since this is the bk2 section, I am assuming you have a bk2. I would assume that the ecu would trip a low boost or wga code at some point, since peak boost is supposedly 20 psi.

Again, it's your car. Don't go crying to us, IF your car starts to whine or blow up.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
76 Posts
Discussion Starter #25
You're correct and I apologize if I offended you with my statement. I understand your goals and no I don't think it's stupid per se. Just that others might because we all have our own opinions lol.
Yea we all have different goals but i don't verbally attack someone because their goals are different than mine or because you don't like the fact that i want to go top mount vs bottom mount because all "kiddie' wants to do is make his car look good. Its my $$ its my car and i choose to do what i want, if you don't like it, don't comment on it... move on. I asked a question, answer the question if you know, don't criticize ... no worries its all good

I honestly don't know if the stock ECU runs only on MAP of MAP and MAF combined.
This motor does NOT have MAF ... only MAP

Either way, if you matched the flow rates, you would be able to run the same boost level etc.
My post about larger turbos simply implies that the bigger you go, the further outside of the stock ECUs AF ratio you will be and the car will likely run very poorly if at all. Also, your ECU runs on the electronic wastegate for multiple reasons which makes it difficult to tune a turbo outside of the stock one without some difficulty. (Deceleration, partial throttle, oil temperatures, coolant temp, etc)
explain to me how changing from the stock electronic wastegate to a manual external wastegate forced to open at X psi from the compressor affects the tune on the ecu from the new turbo ..??
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
76 Posts
Discussion Starter #26
cfm would affect a/f directly. If the ecu constantly adjusts the fuel too far because of a/f, you are going to get a persistent EPROM error in the ecu, and then going above 4k rpm and above 15 psi is going to trip the code again, and again, and again (I know from experience)
The only way to fix that, is to replace the ecu or wipe and reprogram it, which is going to cost a little less than just getting it tuned in the first place.
And since this is the bk2 section, I am assuming you have a bk2. I would assume that the ecu would trip a low boost or wga code at some point, since peak boost is supposedly 20 psi.

Again, it's your car. Don't go crying to us, IF your car starts to whine or blow up.
1st off and again, i never claimed i was GOING to do this ... This is why this thread was started, to ask questions and to see if it would work, and if not... WHY
I gave you my reasons as to why it WOULD work but again as you just mentioned above that you assume i will be going to 15 psi with the new turbo.... WHO told you that i was going to hit this motor with 15 psi on the new larger turbo..?? I didn't .... I said i was going to MATCH the cfm from one to the other since there is no MAF sensor ..
Now explain to me how cfm will directly affect a/f ratio's if the cfm's were matched ..??
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
76 Posts
Discussion Starter #27
The reason you're looking for is..... The ECU. My 2JZ runs on Maf too and I can upsize the turbo and it'll run fine since it just runs on CFM and AFRs. As long as I don't exceed the injectors I can run whatever boost level I want. For Hyundai I don't think it's the same because of the ECU. It wants to meet what's its programmed for. If you meet its demands, then yes, you should have no problems. If not...... limp mode and error codes
Yes i know, my 97 supra and my 98 240sx are both MAF and i just slapped in a larger turbo and done... as long as i didn't go past 80% duty cycle on the inj, all was good...
But this car is not equipped with MAF so the game changes and hence why this thread was created ... What about the ECU that is does not like about the new turbo when the CFM will be matched..??
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
211 Posts
The reason you're looking for is..... The ECU. My 2JZ runs on Maf too and I can upsize the turbo and it'll run fine since it just runs on CFM and AFRs. As long as I don't exceed the injectors I can run whatever boost level I want. For Hyundai I don't think it's the same because of the ECU. It wants to meet what's its programmed for. If you meet its demands, then yes, you should have no problems. If not...... limp mode and error codes
Yes i know, my 97 supra and my 98 240sx are both MAF and i just slapped in a larger turbo and done... as long as i didn't go past 80% duty cycle on the inj, all was good...
But this car is not equipped with MAF so the game changes and hence why this thread was created ... What about the ECU that is does not like about the new turbo when the CFM will be matched..??
The Hyundai ECU doesnt run on just CFM even if its matched. I'll try and fine some information on the electronic wastegate if I can because that's important too
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,816 Posts
1st off and again, i never claimed i was GOING to do this ... This is why this thread was started, to ask questions and to see if it would work, and if not... WHY
I gave you my reasons as to why it WOULD work but again as you just mentioned above that you assume i will be going to 15 psi with the new turbo.... WHO told you that i was going to hit this motor with 15 psi on the new larger turbo..?? I didn't .... I said i was going to MATCH the cfm from one to the other since there is no MAF sensor ..
Now explain to me how cfm will directly affect a/f ratio's if the cfm's were matched ..??
psi is a result of cfm against a restriction.

Everything in the way of the resulting air/combustion getting to the tail pipe is a restriction.

keeping everything the same, except manifold, turbo and o2 housing (final point the ecu can read the combustion) you would be changing the restriction.
turbine housing side in particular is the biggest restriction.
going with a larger turbine side from stock, will lessen it, causing more cfm to be able to go through the system.


I haven't even talked about air density. At the same psi, on a larger turbo, it will be well below it's thermal efficiency limit, which translates to more air molecules being shoved into the chamber, which WILL affect A/F.

The ecu calculated a simulated MAF value from the 2 MAP sensors, a barometric pressure sensor, intake air temp sensor, and ambient air temp sensor.

15psi - I gave this value because "I" stated that "I've" ran into this problem already. Then followed up with since it's what I assume is a bk2, that it most likely have a higher "low boost" CEL trigger.

The way hyundai has been programming their ecus for the last 12 years aren't programmed by target values. They are programmed by having hard target ranges and use values from other tables to operate within those ranges.
What this means is...
example:
cruising at 2500 rpm at 6 psi, the ecu is happy
cruising at 6 psi at 3000 rpm will trigger a CEL

ECUs as of the last 15 years, aren't the same as the 8/16 bit ecus of the 90s, I know. Try tuning from straight hex tables.

And if you're not going to be doing this, then why are you trying to turn this thread into an argument?
I think someone needs to get off the internet for a little bit and have their morning coffee
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
psi is a result of cfm against a restriction.

Everything in the way of the resulting air/combustion getting to the tail pipe is a restriction.

keeping everything the same, except manifold, turbo and o2 housing (final point the ecu can read the combustion) you would be changing the restriction.
turbine housing side in particular is the biggest restriction.
going with a larger turbine side from stock, will lessen it, causing more cfm to be able to go through the system.


I haven't even talked about air density. At the same psi, on a larger turbo, it will be well below it's thermal efficiency limit, which translates to more air molecules being shoved into the chamber, which WILL affect A/F.

The ecu calculated a simulated MAF value from the 2 MAP sensors, a barometric pressure sensor, intake air temp sensor, and ambient air temp sensor.

15psi - I gave this value because "I" stated that "I've" ran into this problem already. Then followed up with since it's what I assume is a bk2, that it most likely have a higher "low boost" CEL trigger.

The way hyundai has been programming their ecus for the last 12 years aren't programmed by target values. They are programmed by having hard target ranges and use values from other tables to operate within those ranges.
What this means is...
example:
cruising at 2500 rpm at 6 psi, the ecu is happy
cruising at 6 psi at 3000 rpm will trigger a CEL

ECUs as of the last 15 years, aren't the same as the 8/16 bit ecus of the 90s, I know. Try tuning from straight hex tables.

And if you're not going to be doing this, then why are you trying to turn this thread into an argument?
I think someone needs to get off the internet for a little bit and have their morning coffee
Outside of the few people who can tune these ECU's it's going to hard to know what those table values are and what is expected, also why its hard to give an exact yes or no answer to the original question. With careful consideration, it may be possible to find something that would work within the confines of the stock programming. The consequences of being wrong though, at best lead to a poor running setup, to at worst, a blown motor. Its a significant gamble.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,816 Posts
Outside of the few people who can tune these ECU's it's going to hard to know what those table values are and what is expected, also why its hard to give an exact yes or no answer to the original question. With careful consideration, it may be possible to find something that would work within the confines of the stock programming. The consequences of being wrong though, at best lead to a poor running setup, to at worst, a blown motor. Its a significant gamble.
read my first post in this thread
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
211 Posts
Y'all need some snickers
😄
AKGC has it all laid out.


I think everything pertinent has mostly been answered in this thread. I was in the same boat when I got the car not realizing the 2013 and 2014 2.0T turbo and manifold were integrated with an EWG. Now i'm stuck wishing I had an older model year that I could easily upgrade:/ Looks like i'll be keeping the car bone stock unless I can get a CHRA upgrade with a substantially better compressor wheel.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
😄
AKGC has it all laid out.


I think everything pertinent has mostly been answered in this thread. I was in the same boat when I got the car not realizing the 2013 and 2014 2.0T turbo and manifold were integrated with an EWG. Now i'm stuck wishing I had an older model year that I could easily upgrade:/ Looks like i'll be keeping the car bone stock unless I can get a CHRA upgrade with a substantially better compressor wheel.
I've got an upgraded CHRA on mine with a milled out compressor housing to fit the different wheel. I'm running a canned tune from a local tuner, but my car dynos close to what full bolt on cars do with the stock turbo. It really needs a custom tune to take advantage of the different wheel. Alphaspeed would be my recommendation as I know he has done a number of cars with upgraded wheels. I'm probably not going to bother at this point getting it retuned, likely just move back into an f-body.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
76 Posts
Discussion Starter #36
also why its hard to give an exact yes or no answer to the original question. With careful consideration, it may be possible to find something that would work within the confines of the stock programming. The consequences of being wrong though, at best lead to a poor running setup, to at worst, a blown motor. Its a significant gamble.
Was that so hard to say..?? I ask a question and get attacked and told to get off the internet and get some coffee btw i don't drink that garbage ... And i get called a kiddie that all he cares about it to make his car look good because he does not like my idea ..
So you ask a question like "can i add a turbo to my car" ... The answer is YES... BUT... blah blah blah .. My question was can i change from stock bottom mount to top mount and upgrade to a larger turbo and limit its CFM to match stock turbo and NEVER allow it to exceed it... Answer is YES... BUT you MAY need a tune BECAUSE ........ blah blah blah ..
One guy says .. what about the stock electronic wastegate... the ecu is "expecting" it to be there and if its not there then you'll have a problem. Ok then, why don't you explain to me what WILL happen if the stock electronic wastegate is NOT there ...
Most of you guys keep saying NO NO NO but you don't clearly explain WHY its a bad idea ... Then im the bad guy because i want answers that make sense.
Its no different than YOU asking someone else for advice and they tell you NO and refuse to give you a valid reason that makes sense in your head ..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
76 Posts
Discussion Starter #37
I would look for a td04 or td05 with a similar efficiency chart to the 19t, so it won't be too far out of what the ecu is expecting.
I have a TD04 now...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
76 Posts
Discussion Starter #38
I think everything pertinent has mostly been answered in this thread. I was in the same boat when I got the car not realizing the 2013 and 2014 2.0T turbo and manifold were integrated with an EWG. Now i'm stuck wishing I had an older model year that I could easily upgrade:/ Looks like i'll be keeping the car bone stock unless I can get a CHRA upgrade with a substantially better compressor wheel.
Well, its looking like its to much of a hassle to do this upgrade for cosmetic reasons only.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,816 Posts
I have a TD04 now...
cosmetic. they make td04s with different turbine housings with different flanges flanges.

what is in the bk2 is a td04hl-19t

td04hl is the core and turbine designation

19t is the compressor wheel

the bk2 turbo core/turbine is not swappable with td04l that is also in the bk1.

and going with any of the bk1 aftermarket exhaust manifolds, you would lose the benefit of having a twinscroll. (less torque response)

the ewga mounting can be modded to work.

If anything, on a bk2, I would swap over a bk1 intake manifold and get rid of the stupid plastic one.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
76 Posts
Discussion Starter #40
Here is a question that i have been searching for months since i got my 14 and i can't find an answer. Whats the engine code for this 13-14 model and is it the same motor as the 12 and below..?? Like Supra is the 2JZ-GTE, 240sx has the KA24DE motor. I found one forum, not here that claims its the 4B11T but some guys said no, but nobody has a def answer
 
21 - 40 of 58 Posts
Top